Apt 5J: What 'Q' says about the GNR Search and Rescue Dogs

Ollie wrote:So Gerry did drive near the apartment the night that Eddie and Keela were searching, with the face of one 'who has few friends'. Yes I can imagine his expression, we've seen it all to often when someone asks a wrong question or challenges what he says.

But why did he drive by at that time? He knew what the dogs would find. I wonder if the PJ are kicking themselves that they couldn't take the dogs into 5J? Could this case of turned out totally different if they had?

Just struck me, there's no mention of the media following him. They said it was impossible for them to of moved Madeleine's body in the hire car as they were constantly followed. It would seem that Gerry managed to drive by the apartment without the media following him that night, interesting.

  Great point, well spotted!

Useful topic on the dog results:


https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t5671-dogs-more-dogs-fridges-and-apartments?highlight=fridges

 

A loose link perhaps but one that deserves a mention (apologies if it has already).

Concerning 5J, due to the rotting meat and veg in the fridge it's obvious that it had been used. In warmer climates the decomposition of food would not take too long to smell bad, only a few days, especially with the fridge door open. That is very suspect as who would leave a door open like that? Flat paid in cash so no record, and didn't someone leave on the 4th May to fly out to Switzerland earlier that expected?

Maybe the food was rotting because someone quickly emptied the fridge to put something else in and then after a period of time had elapsed then threw the food back in and left the door ajar to account for the spoiled food when the apartment was reoccupied.

chilli wrote:Maybe the food was rotting because someone quickly emptied the fridge to put something else in and then after a period of time had elapsed then threw the food back in and left the door ajar to account for the spoiled food when the apartment was reoccupied.

***
Chilling idea. It's sloppy to leave an apartment with food in the fridge, but it's strange to leave it then with the fridge door opened ...

We've done it when we've rented out private holiday homes with stuff that's in date and unopened - but always left a note to tell the cleaners to take it if they want it.

The only other time I've left perishable food was many years ago on a package 
holiday when we'd been given the wrong pick up time by the rep and had to leave our breakfast eggs and bacon behind. 

Some people are selfish though and may have left it assuming the owners/rental agency would clear up their mess. 

Whatever the reasons, if someone wanted to put a large item in the fridge, such as a body, then the contents would need removing first.

Just bumping up this interesting topic.

Also of interest here, is that Rachel Oldfield made a point of saying that her baby had a bad case of diarrhea.....not only that, but we are also unnecessarily informed the poo leaked, and smelt REALLY BAD...and Russ had to wash these sheets.

Imo., like the McCanns, when a member of TM emphasizes something seemingly irrelevant to the case, we know that these are thrown into the pot to obfuscate - Reminiscent of the poo nappies and rotten meat spill used by the McCanns to explain away the smell left behind by a dead body in their hire vehicle...

Snifferdog wrote:Just bumping up this interesting topic.

Also of interest here, is that Rachel Oldfield made a point of saying that her baby had a bad case of diarrhea.....not only that, but we are also unnecessarily informed the poo leaked, and smelt REALLY BAD...and Russ had to wash these sheets.

Imo., like the McCanns, when a member of TM emphasizes something seemingly irrelevant to the case, we know that these are thrown into the pot to obfuscate - Reminiscent of the poo nappies and rotten meat spill used by the McCanns to explain away the smell left behind by a dead body in their hire vehicle...

And as Doctors they would know that diarrhoea as bad as she described is a serious condition in a small child,yet they didn't seem to do anything about it, or if they did they didn't tell us, which I find very strange as they tell us everything.

Exactly Nina! A very serious condition in a baby. Constant monitoring is necessary, and feeding of electrolyte solution to rehydrate.
I would never leave a small baby alone, never mind one with diarrhea. Such a situation would require that the soiled nappies to be changed immediately to avoid nappy rash.....are we also supposed to believe that the Oldfields took their sick baby to day care, where other babies and children would be exposed to picking up the bug??? Diarrhea is highly infectious, and can easily spread to others, so I doubt that a baby with diarrhea will be accepted into the crèche.

Ollie wrote:Thanks for posting that Stella. So what were the dogs alerting to? it wasn't the rotten food found in 5J. Also interesting is that Eddie and Keila didn't alert to cadaver or blood in apartment 5J.

Possibility: a body had been stored in the fridge in apartment 5J? If Q's theory has any merit.

This is an account sent to me by people who'd been on holiday for three weeks: 
Quote:
We think that only a few days after we left home there was an electrical glitch, probably originating in the control knob of a microwave oven (the knob did not operate anymore when we got home).  This glitch tripped a differential breaker which oversees the entire kitchen and thus everything got turned off. Including the new fridge freezer, containing frozen meat.

You can imagine that when we got back the welcoming pong was a bit strong, but we aired the kitchen, emptied the  meat which had decayed in the freezer draws and scrubbed and washed the freezer. Many times.

The drawers went outside, they are clear plastic things. We tried to order new replacements but they are no longer available. So we bought industrial fridge cleaning stuff, much washing and airing followed.

Now we have the freezer back in service, with clean drawers and at minus 18 you might imagine the odor has gone.

The reality is that when the freezer draw is opened, you can still detect the odor straight away at a range of 3 or 4 meters. Then there is the iffy odor which lingers a while.

We are now a good four weeks or more from when we think the 'accident' occurred and we can smell the effects at a range of meters, even after very extensive cleaning. I hate to think what a dog would make of it.
Unquote

aquila wrote:As I understand things, the Ocean Club/Mark Warner accommodation in PDL was scattered across a pile of apartment type properties. My understanding is that Mark Warner don't actually OWN these properties.  Some property owners rented out their apartments using Mark Warner as an agent. Some property owners might also have used private listings or other means to rent out their apartments. What does seem to stand out is that there are a cluster of apartments around the pool area and Tapas Bar that were/are under the banner of Mark Warner holidays but that is not to say that Mark Warner were the only agents - if you own a property you can place it with anyone for lettings - unless there is something legal to say that Mark Warner is the only company that can do that.

If the common areas such as the pools, tennis courts, tapas bar etc are in some way in an agreement (sorry, I don't have the legal term) to owners of the properties whereby they are somehow bound by a contract to use MW then that is significant I think. Otherwise anyone could rent out their property to whoever they like and employ a gardener, cleaner of their choice. Of course it might well be that the MW cleaners/gardeners/staff are easier for an expat to use regardless of any legal obligation but it would be interesting to see whether or not there was a legal requirement for residents/owners to use MW for such services - particularly in the 'brochure photo' areas surrounding the pool etc.

To my mind that would clarify that MW were the only people renting out properties on the complex.

Editing to Add: I remember something or other that Robert Murat's mum Jenny mentioned that people could have been renting out properties without permission/legally/tax declaration.

thanks aquila, given the "hotch / potch" ad hoc / seasonal nature of the OC/MW accommodation surely a janitor, cum fire marshal, plumber, on site electrician, handyman, had a master key or similar?  Commonly on these sort of sites there is at least one "Old guy/ woman" who has been there for years who has keys to all sorts of cupboards, lock ups, apartments, cubby holes (yes I recall the kids toys / garage) etc.  What if new fire alarms were installed?  Would 5J just be left out so it could burn down in the event of a fire breaking out?   Would a flood in 5J just be ignored because "No one knows" who owns it??  What if some electrical outage occurred to the OC/MW.  No one would be able to check power had been restored there?  Often really simple things go on across estates, door closers being added to doors, new fans, windows, pest control, all the time, irrespective of ownership, season, etc that mean someone somewhere ALWAYS has access.  In the immortal words "I just don't buy it!"

Guest wrote:

5J can be seen in this picture, on the left, just above 5F.

If there is any merit in Q's theory that a body may have been hidden in apartment 5J for a time causing the early sniffer dogs to become agitated  at this particular apartment then how easy would it have been for anyone to have put a body there that week without being seen by third parties (or, indeed a body or other incriminating evidence anywhere else for that matter?) How many other guests were there in nearby apartments, for instance?

Well, if reports on this thread are correct that the cleaner said that only apartments A, B, D, G, H and K were occupied in block 5 that week, and all the rest were empty, that means that apart from the McCanns and their Tapas friends only two other apartments in block 5 were occupied.

Apartment 5G directly above the McCanns where Mrs Fenn lived. And apartment 5K where I think the Moynes were staying which is directly above Mrs Fenns - (might need to check that). This was the only occupied apartment on the top floor of the block it would seem. 

Apartment 5J is on the second floor, right at the other end of the block to the two non-TM occupied apartment. This is an advantage as prying non-TM eyes are further away. All the adjacent apartments to 5J are empty so less likely that anyone would hear the apartment doors being opened or anyone going in. 

The closest occupied apartment to 5J is apartment 5D which is on the floor below (not directly below but one apartment along). This was occupied by Jane Tanner and Russell O'Brien and their children It was this couple who claimed that their child had terrible diarrhea that week so a terrible smell came from their apartment and they also needed to use the washing machine (presumably repeatedly) to wash clothes and bedding.  

The next closest occupied apartment to 5J is apartment 5H which was occupied by the Payne family. Separating 5J from the Paynes apartment is empty apartment 5I.  And directly to the right of the Paynes is Mrs Fenn. This effectively means that, in the event that apartment 5J is being used in a clandestine fashion, the Paynes in particular (as they are the only members of TM on this floor) can directly monitor the comings and goings of Mrs Fenn - the only independent eye-witness on that floor of the block. It is obviously crucial, if a body is to be moved and hidden, that Mrs Fenn does not hear or see anything suspicious. 

Directly below Mrs Fenn on the ground floor is the McCann apartment 5A (last apartment on the right of the block on the ground floor) and next door to them (going from right to left) is the O'Brien apartment 5B. There is then an empty apartment 5C and then Tanner and O'Brien in 5D. 

So it can be seen that the Tapas apartments effectively 'surround' (apart from above) the only independent witness on the same floor as apartment 5J and thus the Tapas inhabitants can keep a close eye on comings and goings of Mrs Fenn in particular (being right about the McCanns and on the same floor as 5J)  and also the Moynes.

In any event, even if apartment 5J was not used at some point to hide a body or other incriminating evidence, it would still have been crucial for the McCanns and their friends to keep a close eye on the comings and goings of both Mrs Fenn and the Moynes - both presumably independent eye-witnesses if indeed any exist at all in this strange case - and to make sure that they did not hear or see anything suspicious.

ETA: I have read on another thread that the Gorrods might have been staying in 5C. I wonder if this is the case?

"This was occupied by Jane Tanner and Russell O'Brien and their children It was this couple who claimed that their child had terrible diarrhea that week so a terrible smell came from their apartment and they also needed to use the washing machine (presumably repeatedly) to wash clothes and bedding."


j.rob I am fairly certain it was the Oldfield's wee girl who had diarrhoea and that their room stank, Russell O'Brien says his daughter was sick on the night of the 3rd May and he put the sheets in the washing machine.

Rufus T wrote:"This was occupied by Jane Tanner and Russell O'Brien and their children It was this couple who claimed that their child had terrible diarrhea that week so a terrible smell came from their apartment and they also needed to use the washing machine (presumably repeatedly) to wash clothes and bedding."


j.rob I am fairly certain it was the Oldfield's wee girl who had diarrhoea and that their room stank, Russell O'Brien says his daughter was sick on the night of the 3rd May and he put the sheets in the washing machine.

Yes. I stand corrected. The Oldfields were in apartment 5B, next door to the McCanns.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RACHAEL-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm

tigger wrote:This is an account sent to me by people who'd been on holiday for three weeks: 
Quote:
We think that only a few days after we left home there was an electrical glitch, probably originating in the control knob of a microwave oven (the knob did not operate anymore when we got home).  This glitch tripped a differential breaker which oversees the entire kitchen and thus everything got turned off. Including the new fridge freezer, containing frozen meat.

You can imagine that when we got back the welcoming pong was a bit strong, but we aired the kitchen, emptied the  meat which had decayed in the freezer draws and scrubbed and washed the freezer. Many times.

The drawers went outside, they are clear plastic things. We tried to order new replacements but they are no longer available. So we bought industrial fridge cleaning stuff, much washing and airing followed.

Now we have the freezer back in service, with clean drawers and at minus 18 you might imagine the odor has gone.

The reality is that when the freezer draw is opened, you can still detect the odor straight away at a range of 3 or 4 meters. Then there is the iffy odor which lingers a while.

We are now a good four weeks or more from when we think the 'accident' occurred and we can smell the effects at a range of meters, even after very extensive cleaning. I hate to think what a dog would make of it.
Unquote

This is a continuation of the real-life accidental experiment on leaving decomposing material in a fridge:

Just to keep you up to speed with our real life involuntary experiment with cadaverine.

Some seven weeks after the incident, involving just one duck breast, a bit of chicken and some pork chops ( source of information : la patronne ), we have had enough.

It is a new, built in fridge freezer. When the freezer door is opened The Smell still engulfs the kitchen.  We have now found someone who sells new drawers for the freezer. They are clear plastic. Price exorbitant but worth it and we have ordered two new ones.

The old ones are going to the tip. Who or what does that remind you of then ?

unquote

I'm new to this and have read through this thread with interes. I think it is likely that someone local had a key to 5J and it would be very interesting to know who that was.
Does anyone on here know what type of fridge/freezer equipment was available in this apartment and therefore whether it would have been large enough to accommodate the corpse of a 3/4 year old girl? If the apartment was privately owned, the owner could presumably have installed whatever they wished and, like Mrs Fenn, might be a single person only visiting for short periods and thus not in need of a big fridge?

Very interesting thread. I don't know if things are done differently in Portugal but here is some info. for what it's worth. My brother has an apartment in Spain, my in-laws in Teneriffe (lucky things). In both cases the entire block their apartments are located in is managed by the "President" of the building. He has keys to all apartments, irrespective of whether they are rented out through different agents or for private us only. This is in case of water leaks, electrical problems, fire or other emergency. Everyone owning property in the blocks must pay an annual fee for maintenance, re-painting, lighting etc. of common areas ie corridors, stairwells and lifts as well as looking after gardens shrubs etc. This is compulsory. Was there a overall "president" of block 5? If so he/she would have had access to the names of all property owners and charges are usually paid by standing order leaving a paper trail.

There has to be some sort of paper trail for Apt 5J, I asked this question myself a few weeks ago and am trying to get the details myself. I don't know a huge amount about scent dog training, but I do remember watching the casey anthony trial testimony on scent dogs and the expert testified that the dogs do not get confused in anyway between dead animal flesh and dead human flesh. Chemical byproducts produced are very different given the differing percentages to fat, bone and muscle in out bodies to other animals. Pigs are the nearest scent to us, but given the scenario, a few rotten pork chops are far from the same scent a dog trained for human cadaverine is asked to alert to. The obscurity of who was involved with rental/ownership of 5J is just another ridiculous part of this case. Who the hell is covering up for these people, why have none of the 'tapas friends' spoken and how are they perpetuating this myth? The answer as always is too many heads to roll now. Maybe there will be someone brave enough to come forward someday.

Or someone who has a new agenda who hasn't included the McCann's in it or doesn't have to defend a photo shaking their hands. They have propped themselves up at every political opportunity for a handshake.

titandump wrote:There has to be some sort of paper trail for Apt 5J, I asked this question myself a few weeks ago and am trying to get the details myself. I don't know a huge amount about scent dog training, but I do remember watching the casey anthony trial testimony on scent dogs and the expert testified that the dogs do not get confused in anyway between dead animal flesh and dead human flesh. Chemical byproducts produced are very different given the differing percentages to fat, bone and muscle in out bodies to other animals. Pigs are the nearest scent to us, but given the scenario, a few rotten pork chops are far from the same scent a dog trained for human cadaverine is asked to alert to. The obscurity of who was involved with rental/ownership of 5J is just another ridiculous part of this case. Who the hell is covering up for these people, why have none of the 'tapas friends' spoken and how are they perpetuating this myth? The answer as always is too many heads to roll now. Maybe there will be someone brave enough to come forward someday.

If the PJ followed up the dogs' indication of 5J as a place of interest, there is a "paper trail", although clearly not included in their published material. Otherwise, it would now be very difficult to find because of the lapse of time, people moving on and in Mrs Fenn's case dying, etc. Operation Grange, here's some police work - get on it, please!
I can see the psychological and practical benefits of storing the body temporarily in an empty apartment, but the perpetrators would need to know, probably quite early in their holiday, that it was empty, that access was possible, that it was secure and no-one would turn up to use it and that it had a suitable fridge/freezer (unless they were willing to leave the corpse at room temp., which could be only a very short-term solution). Even if we accept that they had all this and did use 5J, the idea raises questions about the final disposal and cadaver dog alerts to the hired Renault Scenic. Given a couple of days to plan, source a car and some local knowledge (Murat?), surely the body would have gone straight to a final resting place far enough from PdL not to be included in any search and so would not have needed to be moved later?