Re: PLANNING THE ABDUCTION HOAX. Was it done over four days, or four hours?

by polyenne 05.03.18 9:25

@sallypelt - exactly right ! I too believe that a number of the T9 had a key part to play and that, up until the Thursday night, it was fairly well "rehearsed" and people knew what they had to say and do.

Then, CLANG !, that big spanner in the works, Jez Wilkins.....poor Jane Tanner still went through with her sighting, sticking diligently to the well-rehearsed scenario, but it was all unravelling and they couldn't do what they wanted, when they wanted. And they certainly couldn't come up with a coherent Plan B in the time available thus the sticker book scribbles, ums, ers and dunnos.

by **Jill Havern** 05.03.18 10:11

PLANNING THE ABDUCTION HOAX. Was it done over four days, or four hours? - Page 2 Poll11

The Poll is now up to 69 who believe the abduction was premeditated before the holiday.
A couple of the options have been added by group members.

Netty has posted this comment this morning about her journey from 'believer' to 'sceptic' (Netty used to believe the McCanns until 2013):

Netty EstelleGroup Admin My assumptions, in order:

May 2007- late 2012 - it's an abduction, as claimed

Early 2013 - a faked abduction, she's still alive and they sold her

Late 2013- early 2017 - Madeleine died in an accident (a sedative reaction/overdose and/or a fall in the apartment, on the second or third night of the holiday); not being able to submit her body for an autopsy the McCanns instead hatched a very, very risky abduction scam within mere days, with the help of friends

Mid-2017 to Now - premeditated murder (although neither of the McCanns is *necessarily* the murderer)

Look at it this way: not only do we not know for sure who the perpetrator/s is/are, we don't even know what crime was committed. And yet an abhorrent crime (or rather a whole series of crimes) have indisputably been committed.

It's therefore the perfect crime, by definition. And you cannot instigate the perfect crime within hours or days (or even weeks)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_crime

by sallypelt 05.03.18 10:36

Here's is another example. This post has also been taken from another blog, and sums it up beautifully. How CAN anyone now believe that this was an abduction?

Anonymous7 August 2015 at 10:52
Anonymous7 August 2015 at 10:52

How anyone, even the most gullible amongst us could still believe they're innocent beats me! It truly amazes me they still have followers on their site, that really DO believe their whopping lies, and come out with things like ''I hope Madeleine will be returned to her loving family soon'' WAKE UP PEOPLE now that would be a miracle!!

And that post was posted over two years ago, YET there are still people who refuse that this circus was anything other than what McCann & Co have been telling us.

by Verdi 05.03.18 12:07

I should be interested to see where Netty Estelle's musings lead mid 2018 - early 2019.

Again I ask, why travel as a family with a group of friends to act out a plan to sell or murder their own child. Even if they did, is it really likely they would do the dirty deed in/from the apartment occupied for the holiday? Think Eddie and Keela!

Methinks Ms Estelle is wee'ing up the wrong lamppost.

NB: There's no such thing as the perfect crime.

by sallypelt 05.03.18 12:20

"NB: There's no such thing as the perfect crime".

Oh I don't know. Ask Jimmy SaVILE. Ah, but then again..............he's dead!

by **Jill Havern** 05.03.18 12:58

Verdi wrote:I should be interested to see where Netty Estelle's musings lead mid 2018 - early 2019.

Again I ask, why travel as a family with a group of friends to act out a plan to sell or murder their own child. Even if they did, is it really likely they would do the dirty deed in/from the apartment occupied for the holiday? Think Eddie and Keela!

Methinks Ms Estelle is wee'ing up the wrong lamppost.

NB: There's no such thing as the perfect crime.

Yes, the "unreliable" dogs that the Government, police and media don't mention, the "unreliable" dogs that even ex-murder detective Colin Sutton dismisses with his theory that the most likely scenario is that Maddie "was stolen to order by slave traders and smuggled into Africa for a rich family who wanted a white child."

I suppose IF Maddie's fate was pre-planned then the deed would have to be carried out somewhere, so why not PdL? Maybe the premeditated dirty deed went wrong because she died accidentally. It's only the evidence behind the sofa that makes me believe she died accidentally, but I still think her fate was known before she got on that plane in the UK.

No way in hell would a loving mother behave like this if her daughter had unexpectedly died days earlier:

PLANNING THE ABDUCTION HOAX. Was it done over four days, or four hours? - Page 2 Do_de_12

I'm not buying it (to coin a phrase from Wendy Murphy).

by Verdi 05.03.18 13:08

sallypelt wrote:And that post was posted over two years ago, YET there are still people who refuse that this circus was anything other than what McCann & Co have been telling us.

It's a bit of a poser ain't it?

I can only think people, if they truly exist, that continue to blindly believe the total innocence of the McCann debacle, are either clinically deluded, or uninterested or unaware of the facts of the case.

Then again, there's always the McCann defence league i.e. friends, family and associates to fall back on. You only need a few faithful adherents with multiple cyber identities and hey presto - you have yourself a virtual army.

by willowthewisp 05.03.18 13:45

Verdi wrote:
sallypelt wrote:And that post was posted over two years ago, YET there are still people who refuse that this circus was anything other than what McCann & Co have been telling us.
It's a bit of a poser ain't it?

I can only think people, if they truly exist, that continue to blindly believe the total innocence of the McCann debacle, are either clinically deluded, or uninterested or unaware of the facts of the case.

Then again, there's always the McCann defence league i.e. friends, family and associates to fall back on. You only need a few faithful adherents with multiple cyber identities and hey presto - you have yourself a virtual army.

Hi Verdi,I voted for 3 Days,based purely on the secondment to Portugal from Exeter to his mothers abode by Robert Murat dated 30 April-1st May 2007 Arrival,International Rescue,is/was Robert Murat controlled by Security services,that's a question no one has answered,we know about tapped Phone lines to his mother's abode,but surely they were carried out by Portugal PJ,Not English sources,Our Man in Havana?

by Mark Willis 05.03.18 14:53

Then there's Brunt on telephone first name terms with Mother Murat and Mr Murat, himself up to his 7 foot forehead in it.

by Scone76 05.03.18 15:10

How can anyone believe the High Tea on the day she was reported missing? There are at least FOUR different versions of who picked up the children and at least three what Kate/Gerry did, only assume Amaral wasn't in full possession of the statements when he was disgracefully removed.

Also clearly Murat was up to something illegal or a crank as why would he lie at least 17 times, I think he probably was involved in some way with the McCanns and I'm convinced he new at least Gerry before that week.

by kaz 05.03.18 15:27

JRP wrote:Can I just add one more question to the 29 above.

30 How did they get over their loss so quickly

This is the big stumbling block for me. How?

Because of this I'm of the opinion that Madeleine was still alive AFTER the so called abduction and the dogs' findings 'fixed' so that people would think she was dead and stop looking for her. Whether she is STILL alive is doubtful. If she was alive on the Thursday the crèche records would not have needed to be falsified. Obviously all the subterfuge would still be required to bring some sense to a non existent abduction.
It's always the dogs' reactions that are the fly in the ointment. Take that away and it all becomes more 'possible .' Just my current opinion. It changes regularly as more information comes to light.

by Verdi 05.03.18 15:31

willowthewisp wrote:Hi Verdi,I voted for 3 Days,based purely on the secondment to Portugal from Exeter to his mothers abode by Robert Murat dated 30 April-1st May 2007 Arrival,International Rescue,is/was Robert Murat controlled by Security services,that's a question no one has answered,we know about tapped Phone lines to his mother's abode,but surely they were carried out by Portugal PJ,Not English sources,Our Man in Havana?

Not forgetting Murat's cousin Susan Eveleigh and her cosy socializing with the notorious jailbird, Max Clifford - ex-PR guru extraordinaire..

It is part of the odd dynamic of this story that when I phone Sally Eveleigh, Murat’s cousin, who also lives in Praia da Luz, her first remark is that she cannot utter a syllable about Murat without the O.K. of her British press agent, the famously rambunctious Max Clifford. And when his blessing is secured, her second is: “Wonderful, darling, see you shortly. Robert can’t talk to you, because he’s an arguido. But we’ll have a bit of a party, won’t we?”

Unanswered Prayers: Vanity Fair - January 2008

by Scone76 05.03.18 15:50

Also Gerry's comment on the plane always bother me whatever did he mean? Was that a clue to premeditation?

by kaz 05.03.18 16:06

Scone76 wrote:Also Gerry's comment on the plane always bother me whatever did he mean? Was that a clue to premeditation?

I think that comment just passes as 'dry humour' in the McCann household.
Wouldn't he have said , '' Anyone would think WE .................enjoying ourselves'' if he meant it in a sinister way?

by Guest 05.03.18 17:12

I voted "don't know".

It's confusing.

It appears last minute, haphazard and rushed with everyone around the table getting their story straight on the backs of children's colouring books.

But I do think something happened earlier in the week and Madeleine was not well from Monday/Tuesday onward. I also think that's why Kate slept in that room because she was keeping an eye on her.

They messed up and there was a compelling reason not to report a death.

All just opinion based on the PJ files.

by polyenne 06.03.18 14:30

Apologies if this has been added elsewhere but it's an interesting piece : http://laidbareblog.blogspot.co.uk/2018/03/a-mothers-and-fathers-grief.html?m=1

by **Jill Havern** 06.03.18 14:41

It's already posted here https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t14737-a-mother-s-guilt-and-a-mother-s-grief

by **HiDeHo** 06.03.18 16:03

My thoughts are very simple...

The contradictions and discrepancies started Tuesday morning.. WHY? Is there ANY other reason for trying to hide the truth?

Last sighting that i consider to be credible under scrutiny and not POSSIBLE mistaken identity was Sunday lunchtime.

So, for me SOMETHING happened AFTER Sunday lunchtime and BEFORE Tuesday morning (Using the files)

I dont know WHEN she died. I see nothing in the files to confirm WHICH day, but as far as the faked 'abduction' I CANNOT believe for one second it could be accomplished Thursday evening/night.

I refer to post I made on another thread...

PLANNING THE ABDUCTION HOAX. Was it done over four days, or four hours? - Page 2 Abduct10

by Ruffian 06.03.18 16:55

Witness Statement
Maria Manuela Antonia Jose
Date: 06 - 05 - 2007
Place of Work: OC

She has worked at the OC, since 25 March 2006, in Luz, as a cook in one of the restaurants within the complex, called the Tapas Restaurant.

With relation to the facts being investigated, she confirms that on the 4 May 2007, at about 18h30, when arriving for work at the complex, she heard from her supervisor, Steve, that a female child who was staying with her parents and siblings at one of the OC apartments had gone missing on the previous day (3rd May 2007).

When she was informed about the disappearance she did not realise which child this was, it was only later, upon watching the television news that night and after seeing pictures of the missing child on television, that she realised who the girl was, referring to her as Madeleine (the name used by the journalists) remembering only at that moment that she had seen her during the meals provided to the children at the crÃ¨che, and which take place at the restaurant where she works and during arrivals at the crêche where Madeleine spent the day, located immediately next to the restaurant.

Upon questioning, the witness confirms that on the day of the disappearance, she worked at the restaurant from 10h00 to 18h45, when, having finished her shift, she went home, where she remained with her 13 year old son until approximately 10h00 the following day (4th May).

On 4th May 2007, due to the fact that she had a medical appointment at the Lagos Health Centre followed by an appointment at the Portimao Court at 15h00, she only began work at 18h30 (dinner service, which lasts until 24h00).

With relation to the facts being investigated, she only knows what she heard from the media or from conversations with her colleagues.

Upon questioning, she states that the last time she saw Madeleine was at approximately 16.30 on 3rd May 2007 when she was having dinner with the other children in their part of the restaurant, as she did each day of that week.

She information that it of use to the investigation, and has nothing more to add, but repeats that the girl was with her parents on holiday at the resort, together with her two twin siblings.

She has no knowledge of any suspicious situation.

Reads, ratifies and signs.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA_JOSE.htm

by JohnyT 06.03.18 20:46

Well I don't know what to think anymore but I will say this. Every one of you, pick three couples to go on holiday with, then ask them to cover for something as bizarre as this. Would they do it? Even if a few would, would they all?
Btw I'm a non believer of the abduction theory.

by polyenne 06.03.18 20:51

They would if they were “in a pact of silence” because of the very reason they were at the Ocean Club that week. Oh, think of the shame of it all to their families, friends and peers

Up to their necks they all are (with the exception of the MIL perhaps)

by Crackfox 06.03.18 23:52

I haven't voted because I'm torn between 2-3 days or premeditated. I'm not convinced by any of the photographic evidence and that, the lack of any forensic evidence (apart from the blood and cadaver ) and very strange behaviour from the off makes me lean increasingly towards a premeditated scenario with M spending very little time where she is alleged to have been and there being another significant location.

by Verdi 07.03.18 0:21

Ruffian wrote:Witness Statement
Maria Manuela Antonia Jose
Date: 06 - 05 - 2007
Place of Work: OC

She has worked at the OC, since 25 March 2006, in Luz, as a cook in one of the restaurants within the complex, called the Tapas Restaurant.

Not knowing the layout of the Tapas restaurant I can't be precise but you need to question exactly where this employee was working. The logical assumption would be a kitchen. Could be al-fresco but that I doubt when talking of feeding a crowd of hungry kids - I can't imagine BBQ was on the menu.

Good point there worthy of consideration - what did they eat? I don't think it was ever mentioned, not that there is any reason why it should have been but it raises the question whether this Tapas high-tea ever happened as regards the McCanns and their group of friends. It doesn't appear to accord with the crèche register.

That aside, I ask how a cook inside or outside the kitchen, would be able to say with any degree of certainty that s/he could identify a strangers child (amidst a number of other children). The witness statement was taken on 6th May 2007, three days after Madeleine's alleged disappearance, the most she could have seen is the photograph/s circulated for identification purposes. As has been discussed ad-infinitum, the images provided by the McCanns to assist the investigation bore no true resemblance to the Madeleine seen in the playground and poolside photographs.

I venture to suggest it being impossible for an Ocean Club restaurant cook to be able to say she saw Madeleine at a specific time and day. I doubt if the cook saw Madeleiene at any time on any day.

Not reliable!

by Verdi 07.03.18 0:35

Crackfox wrote:.... makes me lean increasingly towards a premeditated scenario with M spending very little time where she is alleged to have been and there being another significant location.

Presuming "M" to be Madeleine, what other "significant location" are you referring to? Besides, how does this fit in with "a premeditated scenario"?

by **Hobs** 07.03.18 1:09

kaz wrote:
Scone76 wrote:Also Gerry's comment on the plane always bother me whatever did he mean? Was that a clue to premeditation?
I think that comment just passes as 'dry humour' in the McCann household.
Wouldn't he have said , '' Anyone would think WE .................enjoying ourselves'' if he meant it in a sinister way?

Don't assume you think what he meant, listen only to the words he said.

He told us he wasn't there to f****** enjoy himself and then Maddie disappeared shortly after.
Leakage.