Mrs Fenn's statement

by Smokeandmirrors 06.01.14 18:30

Message for Sharon or anyone else who can help. Sharon, you cast some doubt over Pamela Fenn's statement and I'm intrigued to know more. Just seen the clip posted up with her saying "rubbish" but curious as to why she made a police statement saying she was certain crying came from the McCanns apartment.

I'm wondering why she would make a false statement, if that is indeed the case.

by **Tony Bennett** 06.01.14 19:37

Smokeandmirrors wrote:Message for Sharon or anyone else who can help. Sharon, you cast some doubt over Pamela Fenn's statement and I'm intrigued to know more. Just seen the clip posted up with her saying "rubbish" but curious as to why she made a police statement saying she was certain crying came from the McCanns apartment.

I'm wondering why she would make a false statement, if that is indeed the case.

Because she had been close friends for years with Mrs Murat and Robert (who also almost certainly knew Gerry McCann already) - and she may therefore have been asked to 'help'.

The 'cover story' here is: "We left the children on their own, checking on them from time to time. An abductor took his chance and took Madeleine".

Whereas the true story might well be that someone in the group was with the children each night (there was always one adult away from the Tapas group each night, supposedly ill or sick), and that something altogether different happened to Madeleine, maybe earlier in the week.

In that case, Mrs Fenn's evidence would provide terrific support for the 'cover story' which - let's face it - most of Britain believes.

Not saying whether Sharon is right or wrong - just trying to provide an explanation in answer to your question.

There are relatively few major witness statements in this case which we can unreservedly accept as the honest truth...

by Smokeandmirrors 06.01.14 19:47

Thanks Tony. I found it odd that she poo-pooed it as rubbish on that telly clip, knowing she had given a statement to the police, and by denying she had said anything (which I assume was BEFORE the files were released), had outed herself as a liar either way.

Absolutely NOTHING about this case seems to stand up to any sort of scrutiny.

by **sharonl** 06.01.14 20:37

Thanks Tony

Smokeandmirrors

We know that Mrs Fenn and her Neice both made official statements because they are in the official files but whether they commented elsewhere we cannot be sure.

The McCanns claim that:

The children were left alone
The apartment was being watched
There was a spate of burglaries in the area
Robert Murat was hanging around the apartment that night

Pam Fenn is alleged to have claimed:

She heard a child crying for 75 minutes (until the parents returned). Backing up the McCanns claim that the children were home alone.

She saw off a burglar from her own apartment. Backing up the McCanns claim that there were burglars operating in the area. The PJ say that there were no reported burglaries at that time.

Robert Murat was in the area on the evening of May 3rd. Again, backing up the McCanns claims

Mrs Fenns Neice claims to have seen a suspicious person lurking around the apartments and testing a gate. Her description of this man matches the one given by the McCanns on their website.

We later hear that Mrs Fenn denies having heard any crying.

Mrs Fenn has a son who runs a London Company, I could be wrong but the company that I can link to an Ian Fenn does a lot of work for the media, BBC, Virgin Media etc.

As Tony pointed out, I could be completely wrong here but I am not satisfied that a number of witnesses, including Mrs Fenn were completely independent.

Further to this is the claim that the children were left alone. As Tony has pointed out, there was a member of the group absent from the table at all times. In addition to that, according to one news report, four nannies at the crèche, who had recently started work at the OC, were associated with friends of the McCanns. All four were despatched to a MW resort in Greece just after Madeleine disappeared. On the night of May 3rd, two nannies took the night off and went out clubbing whilst the other two remained in an apartment not far from 5a. If there was any truth in the claim that someone was entering the McCann apartment to soothe the children, could it have been the nannies after all?

I could be completely wrong with all of this but it is something that I feel we should look at.

How many people have claimed to have seen Madeleine on that holiday?

by Smokeandmirrors 06.01.14 21:24

Thanks Sharon. There are so many elements that I often feel completely bewildered. There were that many burglars and n'er do wells hanging about in various stairwells etc And I did always find it curious that she had tackled a burglar yet there was no police report on it.

Could it be though, that she said it was rubbish because somehow she got leaned on by someone from the Mccann camp, because her 75 minutes crying statement damaged their already shattered reputations yet further?

Re how many people saw Madeleine, very few by the looks of it and even then how would they know it was her as even all the photographs could be of different girls, e.g. the red dress picture on Kate's novel and the Everton shirt photo look nothing alike whatsoever!

by Guest 06.01.14 21:48

What evidence is there that Mrs Fenn was friendly with the Murats?

I appreciate that as ex-pats they are likely to have been aware of each other.

by **Tony Bennett** 06.01.14 21:52

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:What evidence is there that Mrs Fenn was friendly with the Murats?

I appreciate that as ex-pats they are likely to have been aware of each other.

The question is a good one.

I do not have that ready to hand, but I believe it is more than guesswork that they were friends. sharonl may have more information

by Smokeandmirrors 06.01.14 22:30

If the place my parents have an apartment is anything to go by, and it's not a dissimilar sized place, they probably did know each other, at least on acquaintance/smalltalk level. My parents visit their place for 2 or 3 weeks at a time, and don't go to bars or anything, but have met a few people (half a dozen or so expat couples) along the way who they meet for a coffee or email when they are back home. I imagine they would know a lot more if they went out at night or lived there.

by **sharonl** 06.01.14 23:02

Tony Bennett wrote:
No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:What evidence is there that Mrs Fenn was friendly with the Murats?

I appreciate that as ex-pats they are likely to have been aware of each other.

The question is a good one.

I do not have that ready to hand, but I believe it is more than guesswork that they were friends. sharonl may have more information

I will have to find the links but it was said that Mrs Fenn was a friend of Jenny Murats and that they had some mutual connections to the local tenants association or something similar.

Here is some further reading on Mrs Fenn, but I would agree with the title

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2007/12/mrs-fenn-british-press-its-all-rubbish.html

Mrs Fenns niece by the way, was not staying with her. She was staying elsewhere in Portugal, hours away. She made two brief visits to her aunt, on one occasion taking her out to the local fish restaurant, hence spending a very limited time in her apartment. Therefore, going by her statements, it is not possible that Carole Tramner witnessed the burglary in her apartment as is claimed by the press in this article.

Here, it seems that Robert Murat is claiming that Mrs Fenn called him to report that a child had been crying

Witness statement of a GNR officer

He does remember however, that on a day he cannot recall, an individual who identified himself as Robert, saying that he was in P da L as a translator helping the PJ, phoned the Lagos post saying:

That some foreign women, who had already been interviewed by the police, had phoned him, telling him that there was a child crying in an apartment near to them.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1237.55;wap2

by **sharonl** 25.01.14 8:35

Further to my last post we have this extract from Mrs Fenns statement

That night she contacted a friend called XXXX XXXX, who also lives in Praia da Luz, after 11pm telling her about the situation, who was not surprised at the childs crying.

Since Robert Murat took a call from a woman claiming to have heard a child crying, at around the same time, it is safe to assume that this was the same call and the friend was Jennifer Murat.

But why was Mrs Fenn making a late night to the Murats to report the incident.

Why was Mrs Murat not surprised?

by Smokeandmirrors 25.01.14 9:33

This is intriguing. Jenny Murat later came out to say how appalled she was at allegations made towards her son. So it leads me to think that there must have been something about the Tapas group that was possibly witnessed and not in the released portion of the files. Mrs Carpenters statement was not released and there were others, and the mass exodus of staff from the resort.

Interesting the clips from staff post July 2008 that indicated they were shocked at the McCanns behaviour and that of their family members who flew out - lounging by the pool etc.

There seems to be a paradox surrounding the Ocean Club. Clearly because of the Creche and babysitting facilities, it is in the resorts financial interest that parents use facilities to enable them to spend money in the resort of an evening, even though the apartments have kitchen facilities, they want people to go out and spend money (hence the Quiz Night). The more booze they sell, and food, the better for the Ocean Club, employees and the wider PdL community.

But this probably give rise also, the the morals of it to a degree. Who on earth would feel OK about tanked up parents going hope to be in charge of tiny children? The greed outweighs the morality. I imagine the residents of PdL see and hear quite a lot of boozy adults making their way home, As the Tapas were a large group, quite up them selves and arrogant, one could easily imagine they were rather a noisy crowd, especially Gerry who has been described as liking to be the centre of attention.

This could also be a nod to the suppressed Exton dossier, which the McCanns silenced under the cloud of a legal threat.

It is not inconceivable they gathered statements or intelligence pointing to unseemly behaviour of the parents. Certainly early speculation about a lot of booze was rife, plus suggestions in the Portugese media about swinging etc.

The notion that Mrs Murat was not surprised by the alleged crying could be that they lived near enough to Mrs Fenn, that there may have been more than one conversation about the raucous behaviour? After all there were three Tapas apartments below hers and one on the same floor. She was all but surrounded by them and their many tiny children. I imagine the Tapas didn't give a thought to being quiet, they acknowledged they hogged a lot of space in the Tapas bar to the detriment of others, but STILL decided to put their own wants first. Clearly inconsiderate people.

But if this was the case, and staff members alluded to the boozing and weird attitude of the Tapas, it was clearly not in the Ocean Clubs interest to let this be known, that they are complicit in encouraging this sort of conduct. Hence the reputation management and support for the McCann rabble.

This could also go some way to explain why Mrs Fenn said newspaper report of her mentioning the crying child were "rubbish". She knew full well she had made a signed police statement to that effect, and her retraction, albeit a lie, has been troubling me. It strikes me that the reputation managers had got to her. I expect many of the people who lived permanently in the apartment blocks found the constant coming and going of holiday ,makers quite hard to live with.

But there must have been some symbiotic relationship between resort and permanent residents which explains a lot of the strange actions of the resort in the immediate aftermath, and the statement made by Mrs Fenn.

by **tigger** 25.01.14 18:06

sharonl wrote:Further to my last post we have this extract from Mrs Fenns statement

That night she contacted a friend called XXXX XXXX, who also lives in Praia da Luz, after 11pm telling her about the situation, who was not surprised at the childs crying.

Since Robert Murat took a call from a woman claiming to have heard a child crying, at around the same time, it is safe to assume that this was the same call and the friend was Jennifer Murat.

But why was Mrs Fenn making a late night to the Murats to report the incident.

Why was Mrs Murat not surprised?

We're still stuck with the absolute fact that the McCanns were very keen that the PJ should know about the crying.

It only makes sense if they knew that Mrs Fenn had phoned a friend about it. So if it was Murat or his mother - that makes sense. They would expect this to come out fairly soon, so they pre-empted it as early as the fourth in both their statements.

Murat would have warned them. It would be in character for Gerry to be 'clever' and twist it into an early visit by the perp and prove M was alive on Thursday morning. Yes, there was crying, old lady mistaken about day and hey, the troublesome woman is now a witness for the defence. Very Gerry. Or some early PR advice? pure spin.
This theory also explains why it was the twins - changing the lie only much later to Maddie on her own. for me it means that on the first Maddie's body was no longer in 5a. Otherwise they'd have included her earlier.

The OC certainly pulled out all the stops to synchronise with the McCann story. that's why the too early witness statements are so interesting.

Eta: they were very annoyed that the crying story was leaked in September. But not until the full performance in April 08 had it developed into the one of Maddie crying, the passing remark, M moving on and Kate in full flapping mode, should have shaken her etc. but then Gerry slips up big time and says both the twins were crying..

- and when exactly did the 'tea stain' make its debut?

by Unlocked Homes 08.02.17 18:04

Despite all that has been written to discredit Pamela Fenn's story,I think she was telling the truth.

In the brief video clip we have of her, I suggest that,above all,she is simply eager to dismiss the ridiculous press "embroidery" upon her statement or any part she played in assisting with investigation.

The difficulty of course,is for proponents of the "Early death" theory. The fact that Pamela Fenn claimed to be able discern the difference between the sound of a 2 year old and a 4 year old crying and that what she heard,occurred on the Monday,has Maddie hanging around far longer than some armchair theorists would "Like"!

Having said all that,it may surprise some to learn that,I too,believe that poor Madeleine almost certainly died on the Sunday.I simply think that Mrs Fenn was mistaken as to which child she heard.
Her recollection probably coloured by the media's intense focus on Madeleine.

I think that the most useful part of Mrs,Fenn's evidence is her claim that the crying stopped immediately upon what she assumed to be Kate and Gerry's return,when she heard the sliding of the patio door.

Contrary to a lot of the speculation,I believe it is more than fair to assume that the sight of parents and the parents only,would have had an instant calming effect and silenced the distraught child(ren).

It's reasonable to suggest that the physical state of the child would have given a good indication that he/she had been crying for a quite some time.
At this point,it must have occurred to the McCanns that other people could easily have heard the commotion and both were praying that nobody had reported it.After all,with Madeleine already "gone",it would be disastrous at this stage to draw any unwanted attention.Especially before the pathetic and amateurish staging of the the abduction had been set up!
This would neatly explain why a decision may have been taken to sedate the twins on subsequent evenings.

Naturally,none of us believe that the children were sedated,especially after hearing Gerry's totally convincing,sweat breaking,earlobe tugging denial !!!

Kate and Gerry's decision to volunteer the information regarding the crying incident was probably made as an attempt to appear more "open" since there was a real possibility that someone who heard the crying incident would come forward.
They later turned the situation to their advantage by concocting the ever-evolving "Why didn't you come when we cried?" tale,with the purpose of giving the impression that Madeleine was still alive at that point of course.

However,the exact date on which the crying event took place still remains uncertain.
Pamela Fenn says it was the Monday whereas The McCann's little story implies it was on the Tuesday.
My money would go Pamela Fenn being correct about the date but not the child and with Kate and Gerry stretching their deception and luck an extra day!

by Roxyroo 09.02.17 1:30

Ive got it in my head from somewhere that when the holiday was booked they thought there was a listening service but by the time they got there it had been suspended by O.C. so this would surely have been a way TM could have put some pressure on the OC for not providing the service they thought they were going to have. So i tend to agree that maybe a deal was struck with the OC (i can imagine GM being very forthright about getting what he paid for)(no scottish jokes pls, i.m scottish) and a temporary/unofficial service was offered using the nannies. But this still doesnt explain the Government involvement. Maybe it was just another opportunity "to bury bad news" a la 9/11 ??

by **Tony Bennett** 09.02.17 7:00

Roxyroo wrote:I've got it in my head from somewhere that when the holiday was booked they thought there was a listening service, but by the time they got there it had been suspended by O.C...

REPLY: I don't think there's any evidence of that at all - unless you or another member has a link?

...so this would surely have been a way TM could have put some pressure on the OC for not providing the service they thought they were going to have. So i tend to agree that maybe a deal was struck with the OC (I can imagine GM being very forthright about getting what he paid for)(no Scottish jokes pls, I'm Scottish) and a temporary/unofficial service was offered using the nannies.

REPLY: Again, I don't think there's any evidence for that EXCEPT maybe that nannies were used. We do have these indications as to what really happened that week:

1. Only the Paynes said they had an intercom-type arrangement with a link-up to their apartment from wherever they were sitting
2. The investigation co-ordinator who replaced Goncalo Amaral, namely Paulo Rebelo, made a very public statement that he thought all the eight children (well, seven if Madeleine wasn't alive after Sunday) were cared for in the evening all in one apartment (the Paynes' again seems most likley)
3. The likely friendship between the McCanns and Catriona Baker might suggest that she was one nanny at least who could have provided baby-sitting - for the McCanns at least
4. The statements of all the Tapas 9 do not suggest that any 'checking regime' was in place until the last night (Thursday)
5. It is possible that more than one nanny was used as a baby-sitter during the week; there are indications that e.g. Charlotte Pennington and Amy Tierney may already have known each other and Cat Baker
6. One theory that has been put forward on the forum is that something serious happened to Madeleine on the Snday night whilst being minded by Cat Baker and maybe another nanny. IF that were correct, it would give Mark Warner a mighty big motive for covering up what really happened

But this still doesn't explain the Government involvement. Maybe it was just another opportunity 'to bury bad news' a la 9/11??

REPLY: It all depends on two things: (1) what in fact really happened to Madeleine and (2) Gerry McCann's high level connections. The swift and massive involvement of the government and its various security agencies certainly suggest that something very immoral and very illegal which concerned the government's interests had happened. Maybe Richard D Hall's next (last?) Madeleine documentary: 'Madeleine: Why the Cover-Up?' will provide some answers?

------

@ Unlocked Homes      - Your comments re Mrs Fenn noted, BUT you did make one mistake: Mrs Fenn said the alleged 'crying incident' was TUESDAY and the McCanns said it was WEDNESDAY

by The Rooster 09.02.17 7:22

I'm certain greed will dictate the McCanns forthcoming actions and this will in the current climate precipitate their downfall. I hope this could happen!

by **Tony Bennett** 09.02.17 7:27

The Rooster wrote:I'm certain greed will dictate the McCanns forthcoming actions and this will in the current climate precipitate their downfall. I hope this could happen!

Hallo @ The Rooster.

Greed (and perhaps pride) has certainly been the downfall of many a crook and conman.

But there are many other sinister forces involved here, who are determined, if they can, to sustain the abduction narrative into eternity.

The forum-owner gave Prime Minister Theresa May a clear opportunity last year to halt this expensive charade.

But she ducked her chance to do so

by skyrocket 09.02.17 8:24

Morning @Roxyroo and @TB - I appreciate that this is OT but the idea that the group were unaware that there was no baby listening service at the Ocean Club needs to be settled. They were 100% aware of the fact and most state so in their Rogatory interviews. Rachael gives this as the reason that the group requested apartments close together.

The confusion may have arisen because the Ocean Club was a last minute stand in for the uncompleted (on time) Pedra d'el Rei resort further east. The Mark Warner website failed to update all their website when the switch was made. They changed the resort details pages to the describe the OC but they left the childcare pages describing Pedra d'el Rei. Pedra was the only MW resort NOT offering the baby listening service but NO mention was made of the Ocean Club at all. Anyone booking the OC and checking the childcare page would have seen the following statement:

Room listening service
Each evening our nannies tour the rooms to check on your children so that you can relax over dinner.This free listening service is available between 8pm and 12 midnight at all our resorts (except Pedras D'el Rei, Portugal where we offer a drop-in evening creche service) to all children under the age of 13 years.

However, as already stated, it is clear from statements that David Payne clarified the situation by email BEFORE the group left for Portugal (probably before booking).

Another small point is that Payne made a point of saying that they had missed out on a 10% discount which came into force after he had booked (he later asked for it). From the website details this seems impossible. As soon as the early summer offers appeared on the site on or before 5 December 2006 , all the 2007 holidays to Portugal (booked before the 28 February and taken between 22 April and 12 July 2007) had an automatic free child place per pair of adults, or a 10% discount for CHILDLESS groups. He would not have had to ask for the offer and the 10% discount wouldn't have been available to them. We are told that the group booked some time in January and all 4 families would have received 1 free child place. Just another example of economy of truth.

by The Rooster 09.02.17 9:19

Hi Mr Bennett, you are right about the pride element. The daily mail Headline must be contentious for them.

by **Jill Havern** 09.02.17 10:15

Tony Bennett wrote:
The Rooster wrote:I'm certain greed will dictate the McCanns forthcoming actions and this will in the current climate precipitate their downfall. I hope this could happen!
Hallo @ The Rooster.

Greed (and perhaps pride) has certainly been the downfall of many a crook and conman.

But there are many other sinister forces involved here, who are determined, if they can, to sustain the abduction narrative into eternity.

The forum-owner gave Prime Minister Theresa May a clear opportunity last year to halt this expensive charade.

But she ducked her chance to do so

In light of the recent Court Ruling in GA's favour, it's time for me to write to her again.

by NickE 09.02.17 10:17

@Tony
Do you have any information if Mr Shrimpton´s had any high level connections?
He was an MW Director and resigned from Mark Warner 31/10-2007

Mrs Fenn's statement Markwl10

by kaz 09.02.17 12:50

Just picking up on the point made by Mr Bennett regarding babysitting. He says that if one absent member of the Tapas group was babysitting each night it was likely to have been in the Paynes’ apartment. I can’t remember the exact set up now but I believe the apartment had two bedrooms both with two single beds. It always puzzled me why the mother in law chose to sleep on a pull down sofa in the lounge, having to bother with all that palaver twice a day when she could easily have shared the children’s bedroom. Could it be that the bedroom was full of cots every night ? Just a thought

by Nina 09.02.17 13:16

Roxyroo wrote:Ive got it in my head from somewhere that when the holiday was booked they thought there was a listening service but by the time they got there it had been suspended by O.C. so this would surely have been a way TM could have put some pressure on the OC for not providing the service they thought they were going to have. So i tend to agree that maybe a deal was struck with the OC (i can imagine GM being very forthright about getting what he paid for)(no scottish jokes pls, i.m scottish) and a temporary/unofficial service was offered using the nannies. But this still doesnt explain the Government involvement. Maybe it was just another opportunity "to bury bad news" a la 9/11 ??

I think you are meaning the following, scroll down to 00:13:15 1485 starting...........'okay, I'll just go back..........

This is David Payne speaking about the childcare arrangements and the discount they were given...........

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

by roz 09.02.17 15:09

Rachael Rog - So what sort of arrangements did you come to as a group in respect of checking on the children''
Reply 'That we would just check our own children basically, erm'.
They did not need their apartments close to each other in order to check on their own children. Yet much emphasis was placed on this.
DP - "Err basically when, you know prior to the booking err Mark Warner had err he said oh yes it's, you know don't worry we can make sure that all the apartments are together and err then subsequently after booking I then you know, I, obviously it was just something that was very you know because we knew there was some difficulties geographically that you know you could be split out over quite a distance on the actual Mark Warner site. Well that would have impacted, we felt you know quite heavily on the holiday if we'd have you know one couple were, you know, completely out on the limb and everyone else was together so when I'd mentioned this again you know just to, just to err you know, confirm that that would be the situation, that we'd be all together they, the reply was I'm afraid we can't actually guarantee that you will all be together because this is not solely a Mark Warner err set up you know so unfortunately we are slightly err at the vagaries of the Ocean Club about where couples will be but we'll do our utmost to make sure that you are you know together.

by roz 10.02.17 14:40

I tend to agree that the children were together in the Payne’s apartment. DP obtained an extra cot, but not from G and K’s apartment. (The cleaner stated there were two cots there.) I believe that DP and G persuaded Matt and Rachael, and Russ and Jane to carry their sleeping children to and from, the Payne apartment each night. (Except for Thursday.) Scarlet would have been in one room in the cot. G and Ev each in a cot, and E and L in the two single beds all in the same room.
They were well aware before going that MW did not supply a ‘baby listening service’.
Why take the high tech baby monitor to PdL if they did not intend to use it?
And otherwise, why insist that the apartments be close together ?
I believe that G would be brazen enough to say that my 3 will be fine - I will check them myself.
As regards to Mrs Fenn’s statement, I do not believe that anyone can differentiate between a 2 year old crying, and a 4 year old.