Dr Roberts again - just a short one. Logical, Captain.

jeanmonroe wrote:
Perhaps at FP's 'visit' at 7:00PM (19:00 hrs) a child could have been 'accidentally' over sedated by, say, a specialised anaesthetist

Incidentally it is odd that DP is always claimed to be the last 'non McCann' to 'see' Madeleine (with his 30secs/30mins 'visit' asked by GM at 6:30pm)

Yet we have FP 'in the McCanns apartment' AT 7:00pm.

A full HALF an HOUR 'AFTER' DP!

Perhaps she (FP) didn't 'see' the three McCann children!

   

pennylane wrote:
Fi accompanied Kate to the Lisbon trial (after Gerry's infamous strop) holding Kate's hand in front of the media and photographers, and so certainly from the outside looking in they are buddies.  But I've always wondered about the sudden timing of the Gaspar statements.  Is it possible Dave and Fi were given a wake up call?

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:

Cristobell wrote:Further on the question of sedating the children, someone on another thread questioned if this were pre-planned, why sedate the twins, knowing that at some point that night, police would be in attendance.

This has stuck in my head, and I apologise for not remembering who said, but it is highly significant, and one of those, doh, wish I had thought of that moments, because it narrows whatever happened down to that night, there is no leeway for it having occurred on the 1st or the 2nd.  The McCanns are indeed risk takers, but had police insisted on taking the twins to hospital, the whole story would have been blown.

I am probably arguing in my own mind at the moment, because I struggle to understand how everything, the whole abductor, checking system, etc, came together in so few hours.  If everything was done in a panic, it would of course explain the rubbish story, the lack of evidence, the shutters unbroken, the torn sticker book, Jane's unbelievable sighting and the Smiths seeing Gerry running through the backstreets of PDL.  In other words, KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid.

I think it may have been me Cristobell :)  So of course I agree!

jeanmonroe wrote:

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:But I don't understand why Fiona Payne said this in her rogatory statement:

'No, and that was the other thing, she kept going into the twins, she kept putting her hands on the twins to check they were breathing, she was very much concerned in checking that they were okay. But they were okay, I mean, they were fine, they didn't, they were asleep, but at the time it did seem weird, I remember thinking, you know, when the Police came they turned the lights on, there was loads of noise, obviously from the moment Kate discovered that Madeleine was gone, the screaming and the shouting and there was a lot of noise and they, they didn't, you know, so much as blink'.

Why did she bring this up?  By the time of this interview I think sedation was already out there as a possibility, but why did Fiona give such a clear picture of Kate 'being in the know'?

From: DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL
Date: October 24, 2007
I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to.
Her responses to the questions are vague. She continued to respond to questions with "they conform with my earlier deposition" or some similar statement.

1485
'Okay. So I will ask you first of all to tell me a bit about yourself and your family''
Reply
'Okay. Erm, erm, I'm thirty, I'll work that out actually, I'm thirty-five years old. I work as an Anaesthetist at Leicester and Leicester Registrar.

1485
'What is it you do for a living''
Reply
'I'm an Anaesthetist, so I, erm, it combines a lot of different skills, we work in obstetrics, on labour ward doing epidurals, doing caesarean sections for women and we work on intensive care unit, in theatres, cover any need for, you know, resuscitation. So, yeah, it's quite a stressful job and a busy job, erm, I enjoy it'.

1485
'And how long have you been'.
Reply
'Erm, I've been an Anaesthetist since about ninety-seven, erm, in Leicester'.
________________________________________________________________________________________

Perhaps at FP's 'visit' at 7:00PM (19:00 hrs) a child could have been 'accidentally' over sedated by, say, a specialised anaesthetist

Incidentally it is odd that DP is always claimed to be the last 'non McCann' to 'see' Madeleine (with his 30secs/30mins 'visit' asked by GM at 6:30pm)

Yet we have FP 'in the McCanns apartment' AT 7:00pm.

A full HALF an HOUR 'AFTER' DP!

Perhaps she (FP) didn't 'see' the three McCann children, looking like 'angels' in their pyjamas, as her husband DP 'saw' them, earlier than her!

   

suep wrote:

jeanmonroe wrote:

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:But I don't understand why Fiona Payne said this in her rogatory statement:

'No, and that was the other thing, she kept going into the twins, she kept putting her hands on the twins to check they were breathing, she was very much concerned in checking that they were okay. But they were okay, I mean, they were fine, they didn't, they were asleep, but at the time it did seem weird, I remember thinking, you know, when the Police came they turned the lights on, there was loads of noise, obviously from the moment Kate discovered that Madeleine was gone, the screaming and the shouting and there was a lot of noise and they, they didn't, you know, so much as blink'.

Why did she bring this up?  By the time of this interview I think sedation was already out there as a possibility, but why did Fiona give such a clear picture of Kate 'being in the know'?

From: DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL
Date: October 24, 2007
I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to.
Her responses to the questions are vague. She continued to respond to questions with "they conform with my earlier deposition" or some similar statement.

1485
'Okay. So I will ask you first of all to tell me a bit about yourself and your family''
Reply
'Okay. Erm, erm, I'm thirty, I'll work that out actually, I'm thirty-five years old. I work as an Anaesthetist at Leicester and Leicester Registrar.

1485
'What is it you do for a living''
Reply
'I'm an Anaesthetist, so I, erm, it combines a lot of different skills, we work in obstetrics, on labour ward doing epidurals, doing caesarean sections for women and we work on intensive care unit, in theatres, cover any need for, you know, resuscitation. So, yeah, it's quite a stressful job and a busy job, erm, I enjoy it'.

1485
'And how long have you been'.
Reply
'Erm, I've been an Anaesthetist since about ninety-seven, erm, in Leicester'.
________________________________________________________________________________________

Perhaps at FP's 'visit' at 7:00PM (19:00 hrs) a child could have been 'accidentally' over sedated by, say, a specialised anaesthetist

Incidentally it is odd that DP is always claimed to be the last 'non McCann' to 'see' Madeleine (with his 30secs/30mins 'visit' asked by GM at 6:30pm)

Yet we have FP 'in the McCanns apartment' AT 7:00pm.

A full HALF an HOUR 'AFTER' DP!

Perhaps she (FP) didn't 'see' the three McCann children, looking like 'angels' in their pyjamas, as her husband DP 'saw' them, earlier than her!

   

Just noticed an odd anomaly here to do with FP's age - which she erm 'just' has to 'work out' is 35 in 2007. So In 1997 she would be 25. Doctors do 5 years at medical school, so that would be from 18 until 23. There's no way she could have have qualified as an Anaesthetist in 2 years!!

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:

pennylane wrote:
Fi accompanied Kate to the Lisbon trial (after Gerry's infamous strop) holding Kate's hand in front of the media and photographers, and so certainly from the outside looking in they are buddies.  But I've always wondered about the sudden timing of the Gaspar statements.  Is it possible Dave and Fi were given a wake up call?

Yes, true.  Maybe she dropped Kate in it as an act of self-preservation.  If - as I've hypothesized - Fiona was involved in sedating the children that evening, she later distanced herself from it in the rogatory interview.  Back in May 2007, it probably seemed best just not to mention the sedation at all.  But rumours of the sedation got out.  So later on, she makes out to the Leicestershire Police that Kate's checking of the twins' breathing was a mystery to her.  'Weird' as she puts it. Not mentioning it would seem suspicious if a prosection ever occurred involving sedation. A clever act of self-preservation, in my opinion.

And now I'm remembering that the Paynes were mysteriously not mentioned by name in the Crimewatch special.  What to make of that...

pennylane wrote:
Perhaps, having dramatically eliminated Bundleman, hence opening up the timeline and giving the dodgy abduction facade more credence, Op Grange wished to minimize the risk of a calls to Crime Watch re Dr P?

suep wrote:Bobbin, here's more interesting information about FP. This is from the GMC Register of doctors. You can check her record here:
http://webcache.gmc-uk.org/gmclrmp_enu/start.swe?SWECmd=GotoView&_sn=H0CgNJVynAE6wK9Tj-GiYDcWCPkEba5L30bnPnVadQVBdb14Q1.QX2gdBQrb0ceiH8xCwfHxdZO0VwDtkXxPDkBAQahYqB.8qU08bTCWhYBZiPcL.zySyQAmofZkls6LPzhiKb-iHTd-d-neV9FLaRz6Ji3nNkC9TbQbldNlvIY8vLmEY-lZMLTOXsDR3mCK&SWEView=GMC+WEB+Doctor+Search&SRN=&SWEHo=webcache.gmc-uk.org&SWETS=1387461090&SWEApplet=GMC+WEB+Health+Provider+Search+Applet

List of Registered Medical Practitioners

Results of search on: 19 Dec 2013 at 13:53:12. The details shown are valid at the date and time of the search only.
Doctor Details
• GMC Reference Number 4309820
• Given Names Fiona Elaine
• Surname Webster
• Gender Woman
• Primary Medical Qualification MB ChB 1996 University of Leicester
• Provisional Registration Date 01 Jul 1996
• Full Registration Date 06 Aug 1997
• Specialist Register Anaesthetics From 02 Dec 2010
• GP Register This doctor is not on the GP Register
• Status Registered with a licence to practise; this doctor is on the Specialist Register
• •



• Information for Employers This doctor may work at any grade in the NHS including consultant. Doctors working in general practice in the UK health service are required to be on the General Practitioner Register. Please refer to the relevant NHS performers lists regulations.

Annual retention fee due date: 06 Aug 2014

As you can see, she was only fully registered to practice as a doctor in 1997 and only became an anaesthetist in December 2010...three and a half years years after Madeleine disappeared.
Seems both she and Kate lied to the police and in sworn statements.

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:

pennylane wrote:
Perhaps, having dramatically eliminated Bundleman, hence opening up the timeline and giving the dodgy abduction facade more credence, Op Grange wished to minimize the risk of a calls to Crime Watch re Dr P?

Or perhaps he was hoping for one or both of the Paynes to come forward with information.  A message along the lines of  'we've got Jane out of the mess she got herself into, now how about we do the same for you guys that we were kind enough not to even mention?'

pennylane wrote:
Very optimistic view, and I wish I shared it!  

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:

pennylane wrote:
Very optimistic view, and I wish I shared it!  

So do I, I'm not sure either way at the moment :)

ultimaThule wrote:I don't see anything particularly suspicious about Fiona Payne having claimed to be an anaesthetist since 1997 as it may be she has not worked in any other specialism since that time. 

It takes some 6-7 years 'on the job' to become fully qualified in this field and the fact it seems to have taken her 13 years may be due to her having repeatedly failed exams along the way - none of the Tapas doctors are the sharpest tools in the box. 

I'm curious as to how GM achieved a BSc during the time he was a full time student at med school and how he was able to achieve an MD (the equivalent of a masters degress) which is a 3-4 year course of full or part-time study customarily undertaken after some 5 years hands-on experience after qualification as a doctor, albeit such diplomas can be awarded for previous publication of relevant/appropriate research. 

Kate McCann gave her profession as being a GP despite having only worked as a locum 1.5 days a week which, by my reckoning, adds up to some 2 months of full time experience which she gained in the year prior to Madeleine's disappearance, which is somewhat at variance with the image of a family practitioner of many years standing which a doctor of her age (at the time) would be expected to have racked up. 

There's also the question of why KM, or KH for this purpose, is currently shown in the GMC Register as not being licensed to practise.

suep wrote:
< snip >

The point about Fiona Payne is that in 1997 she had only just registered as a newly qualified doctor after graduating. She couldn't possibly have gone straight into anaesthetics without first going through her junior doctor rotations - six months in medicine, six months in surgery etc.Its possible she was training as an anaesthetist by 2007 but since the GMC record shows she only qualified to be on the Specialist Register as such in 2010 she was NOT entitled to call herself an anaesthetist in 2007. Yet when asked in October 2007 by police she tells them she was an anaesthetist since 1997 which is a blatant lie.
The reason Kate is not licensed to practice but is still registered with the GMC is not suspicious but normal for a doctor who isn't currently practising . It simply means she's not working at the moment, at least not as a doctor.

ultimaThule wrote:

suep wrote:
< snip >

The point about Fiona Payne is that in 1997 she had only just registered as a newly qualified doctor after graduating. She couldn't possibly have gone straight into anaesthetics without first going through her junior doctor rotations - six months in medicine, six months in surgery etc.Its possible she was training as an anaesthetist by 2007 but since the GMC record shows she only qualified to be on the Specialist Register as such in 2010 she was NOT entitled to call herself an anaesthetist in 2007. Yet when asked in October 2007 by police she tells them she was an anaesthetist since 1997 which is a blatant lie.
The reason Kate is not licensed to practice but is still registered with the GMC is not suspicious but normal for a doctor who isn't currently practising . It simply means she's not working at the moment, at least not as a doctor.

The GMC Register shows Fiona Payne's provisional registration date was 1 July 1996 - i.e. immediately after she graduated from med school.   Her full registration date is 6 August 1997 which, as I understand it, having completed 2 six month stints in 2 different specialities as a pre/provisional registration hospital house officer, is the time she became fully qualified as a doctor.

Whether or not FP was entitled to call herself an anaethetist in 2007 is a matter of semantics;  if she worked/trained in anethestiology for 10 years she had, presumably, attained Registrar level and would not be subject to the same degree of supervision given to her junior colleagues - in fact, she would be supervising them.

With regard to Kate Healy, as far as I recall the renewal date for her entry on the Register is cApril each year but, despite having ceased to work in any field of medicine after Madeleine's disappearance, she continued to pay the additional fee required to be registered as licensed to practise and was shown as having this status up until cOctober of this year -I'll try to find the recent thread where this issue arose.

As you can see, she was only fully registered to practice as a doctor in 1997 and only became an anaesthetist in December 2010...three and a half years years after Madeleine disappeared.

ultimaThule wrote:This thread https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t2165-dr-gerry-mccann-working-at-the-spire-private-hospital-leicestershire#56574 may be of interest to you, suep, but there's another one which gives more information on KM's registration - I'll keep looking.