Re: The events from 9pm 3RD MAY to end of 4TH MAY as told by the main witnesses

by Liz Eagles 12.06.12 1:21

Ribisl wrote:
roy rovers wrote:Because he was the only person available and willing to play the abductor and if recognised he and the sub had alibis back at the OC. Sounds as plausible as anything but IMO the Smith sighting was indeed a red herring / blue whale etc.
A real life abductor tends to plan things out in advance and would have had the escape route carefully studied which would not involve exposing himself in such a careless manner. Gerry Mccann is not so stupid to believe this was how an abductor would have behaved if he was indeed simulating an abduction. Sorry, I don't find your argument plausible at all. Much more logical and safer to stick to an unknown, unseen abductor theory.

However, I do agree the Smith sighting could be a real stinker of sea bass

I have two trains of thought Ribisl. Snatching a child in an opportunist crime like snatching a DVD player is absurd imo. Being paid to snatch a child by rich weird people with proclivities is very possible.

by **tigger** 12.06.12 7:24

Ribisl wrote:Only if we could eliminate all the red herrings and blue whales (and the smelly sea bass too), we may begin to see some simple but irrefutable sequence of events that really occurred that night. Alas, that wouldn't help the fund, would it?

I do not subscribe to the subs theory, but the idea of Gerry pretending to be an abductor and deliberately trying to be seen by some unsuspecting witnesses by carrying a subs child down to the beach while all the commotion is going on back at the OC really overstretches my imagination. Why expose yourself to the possibility of being identified by a stranger turned witness? If Smith family's recollection is accurate and it was indeed Gerry carrying a child that night, it could only have been Madeleine imo, dead or alive. I would like to hear some convincing arguments to counter this premise.

Over to you, tigger

But the egg man is even more ridiculous and imo being recognised was no great risk. The lighting in town wouldn't be all that bright, Gerry had 8 Tapas to testify he was with them at the time if he was 'identified'.
I think Pat timed it at a fairly leisurely 10 minutes walk.
It's interesting that they didn't make use of the Smiths' sighting as soon as they could - must have been officially known by the end of May when the Smiths gave a statement. Did the PJ tell them?
That may be because of the timing or because Gerry was still worried about it or because the timing was so far out from egg man.
So in theory the commotion might have begun early because of the JW meeting which would fit much better. There was no definite time schedule otherwise they need not have drawn one up later.

One could have a scenario where the T6 (DW knew little or nothing) were asked to back them up as and when required. So G and K might be absent from the table quite early which is why the waiter said the three couples were gone.
I will try to turn this into a timeline - see if it fits.

I always feel there's a lot of Delboy in Gerry. Ask yourself, would Delboy have concocted such an idiotic scheme? A resounding yes!

The only object of the whole exercise was to convince the police it was an abduction where there was no evidence for an abduction.
An abductor, means of ingress and witnesses of suspicious individuals with or without a child were imperative for the story to have a chance.
Therefore a window which was impossible for the child to exit, toys which she was never without had to be added.

You know, it's the damn shutters, it they'd been believable all would have been fine.
When the shutters had to be ditched, the patio doors opened as if by magic. (although RM says they were shuttered!) But that took away the solid base of the abduction argument. Now the patio door allowed the child to exit by herself. Disastrous.

I'll try and see if the earlier witness statements can be 'married' to the rest. JW being a moveable feast and there were reports of Gerry early on trying to stretch the time they spent together - so that does look as if he tried to get the two sighting closer together.
Phew! fan

by gbwales 03.09.13 19:00

21H20, Executive Chef A. E. G. F. P. heard some clamour, which made him leave toward the restaurant, a few meters away, and was then informed that a child had disappeared.
at around 21:40, he left the restaurant passing through the same esplanade where moments before, he had seen the same table occupied by the three couples, empty, who had left in the meanwhile various items, principally clothing. He was told by his colleagues that the child who had disappeared was a child of one of those couples;

Property manager B. J. J. W. heard about the news being investigated on the evening of 3rd May at about 21.30 – 21.40 from P.B., a Dutchman and owner of the Atlántico restaurant, who passed by the witness near the Baptista supermarket, in P da L and who asked for his help in searching for Madeleine. He then went to the place where the events occurred which was at about 21.45 – 21.50. At this time various local people and MW staff were present. When questioned he said that the police had not yet arrived and that about 5 minutes had passed.

Dinner finished at around 21H45 and some minutes passed where waiter R. A.E D. L. O. looked towards the table but saw no one—his colleague told him that all the guests of that table left rapidly and abruptly. He remembers having heard shouts in the direction of the McCann apartment;

Between 21.30 and 22: Fitness instructor/Waiter J. R. S. went over to the table and joked with (Diane Webster): “They’ve left you alone?” She responded more of less with these words: “No, they went to see if the little girl was there.” I responded that I hoped they would find her somewhere in the apartment. At saying this, I saw the man. Who I knew later to be Madeleine’s father, running to the pool and to the children’s play area in the Tapas zone as if looking for someone. It immediately hit me that after talking to the older woman, that the little girl had not been found. I offered to alert the workers at the Milenium Restaurant and the man agreed. He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21H30 and 22H00 but do not remember with certainty.

These times, if they are to be believed (and why shouldn't they be... let's face it they come from completely disinterested parties with no reason to lie or mislead) throw a couple of points into sharp relief....

1 - The gap between raising the alarm and actually calling the PJ now stands at the best part of an hour and a half, surely....?

2 - JT would have seen the kidnapper possibly 5 minutes before the alarm appears to have been raised. And doesn't think to mention what she has only just seen.

Both strike me as quite bizarre.

by **tigger** 03.09.13 19:27

You've hit on an interesting point. Perhaps the early and later witness statements would make sense if separated into disinterested and interested parties.
Imo MW adjusted a number of witness statements within a short time. MW also had Bell Pottinger in place by Saturday.

So it would be useful to know which statement was given at what time.

by Monty Heck 03.09.13 20:45

About 22.55/23.00 manager E. L. K. went to the McCann’s apartment to obtain the girl’s description and of the clothes she was wearing when she disappeared. When she arrived at the apartment, there was a lady on the terrace, whom she now know to be Kate McCann, accompanied by the wife of one of her friends, David Payne. Kate could not say a word, looked very upset and about to cry. It was Mrs Payne who provided her with the details that she needed.

Re the passage above in red, in less than an hour since discovering her daughter missing, KMcC was so incapable of speech she was unable to assist the search by providing a description of her own child or the clothing she was wearing when last seen. Allowing for very natural feelings of fear, panic or upset, it would be imperative for a parent to rally her/himself to meet such basic requests regardless of how they were feeling, yet not in this case. Why was KMcC so paralysed at such an early point as to be completely unabe to provide even a description? And yet when not critical, speech seemed to quickly return, as evidenced by the volume of phone calls made and received throughout the remainder of that night. Phone calls made and answered between bashing walls and furniture in rage, then praying and keeping vigil, and also checking the twins' vital signs during that night. Yet despite apparent recovery, there seems to have been something of a recurrence the following morning, when YM tried to offer assistance.

by **tigger** 03.09.13 20:51

Don't forget Kate and Fiona calling Mrs.Fenn 'some choice words' not long before or after losing the power of speech.

by Monty Heck 03.09.13 20:58

tigger wrote:Don't forget Kate and Fiona calling Mrs.Fenn 'some choice words' not long before or after losing the power of speech.

Ah yes, by her own admission a few colourful phrases were sent in the direction of an elderly lady around the same time. Obviously one of those things that comes and goes..... smilie

by Guest 03.09.13 22:12

Monty Heck wrote:
tigger wrote:Don't forget Kate and Fiona calling Mrs.Fenn 'some choice words' not long before or after losing the power of speech.
Ah yes, by her own admission a few colourful phrases were sent in the direction of an elderly lady around the same time. Obviously one of those things that comes and goes.....

***
And leave me speechless too.
BTW I am still intrigued by the "can of beans falling of a high shelf"...

by comperedna 04.09.13 14:20

That reposting of the listing is a tour de force and well worth it. Even if everything does not dovetail. How could it, it provides a superb base line. Thanks for the reposting, TB.

by whmon 24.10.13 20:50

Apologies if this has been posted before - I can't see it in the search box. It is an interview with Diane Webster it's long but interesting, for example she states that she cannot recall seeing MBM at all on the 3rd.

Towards the end of the interview, the policewoman states that she is going to ask DW some questions posed by the Mccanns themselves. Their questions focus on how the Mccanns appeared before and after the event. All very strange IMO.

http://duartelevyen.wordpress.com/2009/01/27/dianne-webster-record-of-tape-recorded-interview-i/#more-15