Portuguese prosecutor releases files of sightings

hedge wrote:

justagrannynow 1 wrote:I do think that the only way to get any movement is for the case to be reopened. The parents believe that Gonçalo Amarals book hinders the search for Mdadeleine, but surely the present situation whereby the PJ can decide what to investigate or not is, IMO, more harmful to trying to discover what happened.

It's not just the parents who believe that Amarals book harms the search for their daughter, the portuguese judiciary agree.

The situation with the PJ has aways been an issue I beleive, despite the McCanns giving full and vocal compliments to the PJ and the work they did, objective viewers could always see the gaping problems in the investigation, but again what could they do, being critical would run the risk of pissing off the people best placed to find their child. Even now that they have finally expressed their disappointment and criticism they are restrained in their anger and not aimed it squarely where it should be. It's been a balancing act since day 1.

I was trying to look forwards and see how the deadlock could be resolved.

justagrannynow 1 wrote:

hedge wrote:

justagrannynow 1 wrote:I do think that the only way to get any movement is for the case to be reopened. The parents believe that Gonçalo Amarals book hinders the search for Mdadeleine, but surely the present situation whereby the PJ can decide what to investigate or not is, IMO, more harmful to trying to discover what happened.

It's not just the parents who believe that Amarals book harms the search for their daughter, the portuguese judiciary agree.

The situation with the PJ has aways been an issue I beleive, despite the McCanns giving full and vocal compliments to the PJ and the work they did, objective viewers could always see the gaping problems in the investigation, but again what could they do, being critical would run the risk of pissing off the people best placed to find their child. Even now that they have finally expressed their disappointment and criticism they are restrained in their anger and not aimed it squarely where it should be. It's been a balancing act since day 1.

I was trying to look forwards and see how the deadlock could be resolved.

To be fair to the McCanns they have been reciting the mantra of no use looking back at people's mistakes, we have to look forwards, since 2007!!!

Unless there is public outcry in Portugal in the near future then I don't think the PJ will want to reopen these old wounds. Amarals book has played its part and potentially a number of portuguese people might well believe his thesis and so will not think there is any need to reopen a case where the child is dead and her parents know it....

This is what they have been battling since the first negative story within days of her disappearance. It is so vital that the police are vigilant and the public are observant about what their police do and don't do. The public have an immense power and public interest is the pendulum.

The McCanns have been far more patient and held back than I would have been. At the outset as you say Hedge they had to be mindful of what they said, but after a while I would have let rip. I think in the early stages they were not too well advised and having never been in a situation like it they really were lost imo.

bunnie1 wrote:The McCanns have been far more patient and held back than I would have been. At the outset as you say Hedge they had to be mindful of what they said, but after a while I would have let rip. I think in the early stages they were not too well advised and having never been in a situation like it they really were lost imo.

I'm not sure when you can let rip though, the PJ have always had the power, they have the resources, the information, the experience, the local knowledge, the original evidence. I have no doubt that they thought when she is found then they can really kick off and point out the absolute worst of the investigation but then they'd probably be so relieved she is found or so distressed she is found sadly not alive that actually they wouldn't.

It's just impossible and I don't know if it's better or worse that they are clearly such pro active people, many parents might have left it in the hands of the police and just waited at home for news. This means at least they know that have done what they can and really driven the case forward but then there will always be the issue, did their determination to 'do something... anything' piss people off?

Oh you could go round in circles

hedge wrote:

bunnie1 wrote:The McCanns have been far more patient and held back than I would have been. At the outset as you say Hedge they had to be mindful of what they said, but after a while I would have let rip. I think in the early stages they were not too well advised and having never been in a situation like it they really were lost imo.

I'm not sure when you can let rip though, the PJ have always had the power, they have the resources, the information, the experience, the local knowledge, the original evidence. I have no doubt that they thought when she is found then they can really kick off and point out the absolute worst of the investigation but then they'd probably be so relieved she is found or so distressed she is found sadly not alive that actually they wouldn't.

It's just impossible and I don't know if it's better or worse that they are clearly such pro active people, many parents might have left it in the hands of the police and just waited at home for news. This means at least they know that have done what they can and really driven the case forward but then there will always be the issue, did their determination to 'do something... anything' piss people off?

Oh you could go round in circles

You could yes, sadly. My thoughts were that the McCanns quite early on had a good idea that the PJ were not operating as they should, and were planning to use them as scapegoats - you only had to look at the "leaks" in the PT Media followed by the UK media.

bunnie1 wrote:

hedge wrote:

bunnie1 wrote:The McCanns have been far more patient and held back than I would have been. At the outset as you say Hedge they had to be mindful of what they said, but after a while I would have let rip. I think in the early stages they were not too well advised and having never been in a situation like it they really were lost imo.

I'm not sure when you can let rip though, the PJ have always had the power, they have the resources, the information, the experience, the local knowledge, the original evidence. I have no doubt that they thought when she is found then they can really kick off and point out the absolute worst of the investigation but then they'd probably be so relieved she is found or so distressed she is found sadly not alive that actually they wouldn't.

It's just impossible and I don't know if it's better or worse that they are clearly such pro active people, many parents might have left it in the hands of the police and just waited at home for news. This means at least they know that have done what they can and really driven the case forward but then there will always be the issue, did their determination to 'do something... anything' piss people off?

Oh you could go round in circles

You could yes, sadly. My thoughts were that the McCanns quite early on had a good idea that the PJ were not operating as they should, and were planning to use them as scapegoats - you only had to look at the "leaks" in the PT Media followed by the UK media.

Whether they had a genuine fear this would be the case or just a fleeting anxiety I don't know, I recall Murat and his mother making those sorts of statements and of course there were stories in the media, particularly about the concern over Joana's disppearance. To be honest just being in a foreign country, any foreign country, would make any victim of any crime feel more anxious because you simply don't know and your mind automatically goes to the miscarriages of justice and horror stories, its only natural to worry about the worst, even the language barrier would be confusing and frustrating.

Here is another one from the "not relevant" file. Am a bit flummoxed by this one as it says the private investigators carried out surveillance work in the area. I thought they weren't allowed to do this, but the PJ do seem to have investigated it too before filing it away.

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1255297/Riddle-Madeleine-McCann-fat-gipsy-women.html

I'm convinced the little girl I saw was Madeleine McCann': The riddle of Maddie and 'the fat gipsy women'

By Arthur Martin
Last updated at 8:01 AM on 04th March 2010

* Comments (51)
* Add to My Stories

Private investigators searching for Madeleine McCann mounted a surveillance operation amid fears that she was being held prisoner in a run-down farmhouse, secret police files reveal.

They acted after a British holidaymaker spotted a ‘gaunt’ blonde girl wearing a black wig being dragged by ‘gipsy women’ 30 miles from where Madeleine was snatched.

Jean Godwin, 56, a retired care home worker, said the girl she saw on the Algarve was ‘100 per cent Madeleine McCann’.
Seen with a girl: Yvone Albino

Seen with a girl: McCanns’ investigators believe Yvone Albino, a cleaner from Silves, was seen outside the McCanns’ apartment in May 2007

One of the women spotted in Carvoeiro by Mrs Godwin was seen by another British tourist acting suspiciously outside the McCanns’ apartment on the day the youngster vanished from Praia da Luz.

The evidence prompted investigators to follow their suspect to an isolated farmhouse in an orange grove near the town of Silves, north of Portimao. In the following months she paid several visits to the property, a holiday home owned by a teacher and his partner whom the inquiry team deemed to be ‘suspicious’.


Their concerns were raised when they discovered a white Citroen Berlingo with a child’s doll on the back seat and a child’s drawing among rubbish bags – even though the couple did not have young children.
Investigated: Jorge Martins and partner Maria Silveira had their remote home checked



They also spotted the man buying clothes suitable for a girl of five – Madeleine’s age at the time. But surveillance was eventually wound down and the child was never found.

The operation began in 2008 after Mrs Godwin, from Widnes, Cheshire, rang the ‘Find Madeleine’ hotline and gave her suspicions to private investigators. By this stage, the official police inquiry into the disappearance on May 3, 2007, had been closed.

Madeleine’s parents Kate and Gerry continued to employ private detectives in the hope of finding their daughter but these investigators have no legal powers to force suspects to talk to them. The sightings were passed to the Portuguese police who deemed them irrelevant and promptly archived the reports.

Details of the evidence are contained in a 2,000-page police dossier finally published by the Portuguese authorities after requests from newspapers including the Daily Mail. It contains the testimony of Mrs Godwin, who claims she spotted Madeleine in September 2008.

She said: ‘This was a young girl, in the middle of the two women and holding the hand of each. Her eyes were wide open and my attention was drawn to the large irises.

‘The child was wearing what was clearly a black wig. It was short, cut in a bob style and very thick. The wig was shiny and unnatural looking and out of keeping with her very pale complexion and fair eyebrows.

‘I would say she was about 3ft 1in tall and about five years of age. She was very thin and I would describe her as malnourished. Her cheeks looked gaunt. I think she had a bump on her nose.

'I am convinced that the little girl I saw that morning was Madeleine. I have been asked how certain I am. I will say I am 100 per cent sure.’
Madeleine McCann
Madeleine McCann investigation

Missing: Madeleine (left) disappeared in 2007 while on holiday with her parents. A doll was found in the car of a couple investigated as part of her disappearance

Mrs Godwin described the first woman as being an ‘obese’ size 30, in her mid-to-late 40s with ‘dirty and unkempt’ red hair. The second woman was around 60, with unwashed brown hair, and even fatter.

The McCanns’ investigators believe the red-haired woman was Yvone Albino, a cleaner from Silves. Another witness, Jeni Weinberger, from Salisbury, Wiltshire, said she saw a woman resembling Mrs Albino outside the McCanns’ apartment in May 2007.

Mrs Albino, who has two grown-up sons, met teacher Jorge Martins and his partner Maria Silveira at their house in the orange grove.

David Edgar, a private investigator working for the McCanns, described their movements as ‘suspicious’.

Portuguese police confronted Mrs Albino, who said she knew nothing about either sighting and denied any contact with young children. Officers found the house deserted. The woman with Mrs Albino in Carvoeiro was never identified.

Mr Martins and Miss Silveira have never been accused of any crime by police. He told police the doll was given to him by his students several years earlier.

The McCanns’ spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: ‘It’s clear that our investigators have made considerable efforts to follow up leads but without having full access to the files and co-operation from the Portuguese police.’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1255297/Riddle-Madeleine-McCann-fat-gipsy-women.html#ixzz0hE9UrTUN

The PJ seemed to allow the PI's to investigate freely in Portugal. I too thought they didnt want this to happen but the PI's felt free to pass this information on to the PJ. PJ obviously wanted them to do it.

WOODWARD wrote:VAGUELY i have enjoyed sparring with you ,you are unfailingly polite and I apologize for my caps lock outburst but as soon as I saw chinagirl posting I officially declared this yet another pro site and as such not aplace I wish to stay as Idont beleive for one nano second in the contortionist bogeyman pre-planned opportunist swarthy abductor who chose the moment when the area in an around the apartment was awash with tapsniks as the perfect moment to NOT break into the apartment but to go in thru the open patio door and open a window just for fun-and I never will,even if they manage to frame a dozen patsies. Enjoy chatting to chinagirl,she thinks Amaral dragged the corpse of a dead baby around the apartment to trigger cadaver odour for those dogs that cant detect it. Bye Jill SORRY YOUR FORUM WAS OVERRUN BY THE USUAL SUSPECTS

How's Parkies ?

laffin -just posted you a message on a wrong thread,too inebriated to remember which one, will be passing by the old Anchor site and waving to the locals around easter time. I dont do walkabouts anymore,I am too famous and once caused a traffic jam on Oswald Road when I made the mistake of getting out of the car to show my body guard some old haunts

WOODWARD wrote:laffin -just posted you a message on a wrong thread,too inebriated to remember which one, will be passing by the old Anchor site and waving to the locals around easter time. I dont do walkabouts anymore,I am too famous and once caused a traffic jam on Oswald Road when I made the mistake of getting out of the car to show my body guard some old haunts

Call round, I'll show you the working end of my new toy, if you want.

i retrieved it from the MOD. :ambersuz:

vaguely1 wrote:

Doris Stokes was the "witness"

WOODWARD wrote:laffin -just posted you a message on a wrong thread,too inebriated to remember which one, will be passing by the old Anchor site and waving to the locals around easter time. I dont do walkabouts anymore,I am too famous and once caused a traffic jam on Oswald Road when I made the mistake of getting out of the car to show my body guard some old haunts

were you aware, the original "Get Carter" was set in Scunny, but moved to Newcastle for the movie ?

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2879160/Lost-Maddie-double-who-cried-Help-me.html

From ANTONELLA LAZZERI, in Portimao, Portugal

Published: Today
A GIRL the double of Madeleine McCann shouted "Help me!" in English as she was dragged out of a hotel in Austria, police files have revealed.

A tourist couple who had already commented on how much the child looked like missing Maddie were stunned when she cried out as a "tubby" man hurried her away.

The couple, visitors from Norway, rushed outside to look for the man and girl but they had abruptly vanished.


Alarm ... girl, circled, on Canadian TV was like older Maddie

Austrian cops sent a list of all the guests then staying at the hotel to their counterparts probing Maddie's disappearance in Portugal - but NOTHING was done.
'Horrified' ... Kate and Gerry McCann

The report is one of many buried away in a huge mountain of official Portuguese police files obtained this week by The Sun.


Huge ... mound of police files obtained by The Sun

Maddie's parents Kate and Gerry McCann have been "horrified" to discover from the files how little was done to follow up leads and sightings.

The Norwegians were staying at the Hotel Landzeit in the resort of St Valentin in 2008.

They noticed the man and girl in the restaurant and at once saw the child's "striking" similarity to missing Maddie.

As the man pulled the child, who was about four, hurriedly past their table she looked up and begged: "Help me!"


The Norwegians told police they were surprised because they had rarely met any British people in Austria, let alone "children who speak English".

Another reported sighting of Maddie came from Canada, where a woman was reduced to tears after seeing a child who looked like her on a television news report.

The viewer contacted Toronto Crimestoppers to say that the girl - seen singing among a group of schoolkids - fitted the age-progression picture of an older Maddie.

A DVD of the item was sent to Portuguese police along with the report - but again nothing was done.

In a third case a request from British police to Portuguese cops to investigate the background of a suspicious man employed at the resort from which Maddie was snatched was also apparently ignored.


Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2879160/Lost-Maddie-double-who-cried-Help-me.html#ixzz0hHygri5V

vaguely1 wrote:

That sounds so credible. There is a child with a £2.5 million reward out for her discovery, so the people holding her captive take her to a TV show.
Does anybody else find these reports disrespectful, not just to Madeleine, but to all the other children who are exposed to public scrutiny in this way ? The media are treating this tragedy as a joke.

it's disgusting.

Disgusting indeed. They'll never learn to behave responsible unless this kind of behaviour is going to cost them money, lots of it.

How about copyrights? Are they allowed to print any photo they like without the consent of the person him/herself?

bit busy now, so can't check if this already posted, from and old edition of an Algarve newspaper.

Maddie sightings - media madness

Written by Len Port

The McCanns complained last weekend of “injustices that we continue to be subjected to.”
This was widely reported in the UK and Portuguese press and referred to a Wikileaks disclosure that had “led to the repetition of many unfounded allegations and smears both in the UK and in Portugal in particular.”

A modest group of people in Portugal also have been subjected to unfounded allegations, injustices and smears in connection with the Madeleine McCann investigation, but they have had no channel for complaint so their side of the story has gone totally unreported - until now.

Ivone Albino, a Portuguese woman who makes her living as a part-time house cleaner, was shattered to learn in April this year that newspapers in the UK were running sensational stories directly linking her with the alleged abduction of Madeleine McCann three years earlier. She was the latest victim in a tidal wave of misinformation and false “sightings” that began soon after Madeleine's disappearance from a holiday apartment in the village of Praia da Luz in May 2007.

Mrs Albino's name was buried in a “secret” 2,000-page dossier containing information about Madeleine “sightings” that had been brought to the attention of the Portuguese criminal investigation police, the Polícia Judiciária. The existence of the dossier emerged after it was referred to by a police witness during a Lisbon court hearing considering the ban on a book by the former lead detective in the Madeleine case, Gonçalo Amaral.

When the judge in the hearing ordered the dossier's release, it was eagerly seized upon by Kate and Gerry McCann, their advisers and the British press. It was brandished as yet more evidence of the “incompetence” of the Portuguese police in their search for Madeleine.

By then, Britain's mainstream media seemed to have accepted the McCanns' insistence from the very start that Madeleine had been abducted and that she might still be alive. They ignored or viewed with hostility the alternative theory, the one most prevalent in Portugal and the main thrust of Gonçalo Amaral's book, namely that Madeleine had died in the apartment and that her parents were somehow involved.

Referring to the Polícía Judicária dossier and in line with the abduction theory, British (though not Portuguese) newspapers named Mrs Albino as one of two “gypsy women” seen by a British holidaymaker dragging Madeleine along an Algarve street in September 2008. The little girl was wearing a “black wig” but the holidaymaker was “100 per cent sure” it was Madeleine. The same reports revealed that a rag doll had been found at a house repeatedly visited by Mrs Albino. According to the reports, Madeleine “may have been held prisoner” at the house.

A source close to Madeleine's parents was quoted as saying: “This is one of the strongest leads there's been in the hunt for Maddie.”

It wasn't. The “lead” merely gave rise to yet more sensational nonsense in the British press, causing deep humiliation and distress to Mrs Albino and two other entirely innocent people with no connection whatsoever to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

This whole silly episode began in September 2008, eighteen months after Madeleine's disappearance. A 56-year-old retired home care worker from Widnes in Cheshire, England, phoned the 'Find Madeleine' hotline that had been set up by the parents of the missing child. She reported seeing two women with Madeleine in the beach-side village of Carvoeiro, 30 miles east of Praia da Luz.

“This was a young girl, in the middle of the two women and holding the hand of each. Her eyes were wide open and I was attracted to the large irises,” said the Carvoeiro witness.

“The child was wearing what was clearly a black wig. It was short, cut in a bob style and very thick. The wig was shiny and unnatural looking and out of keeping with her very pale complexion and fair eyebrows. I would say she was about 3ft 1in tall and about five years of age. She was very thin and I would describe her as malnourished. Her cheeks looked gaunt. I think she had a bump on her nose. I am convinced the little girl I saw that morning was Madeleine. I have been asked how certain I am. I will say I am 100 per cent sure.”

The Carvoeiro witness described the first of the two women as “obese, size 30, in her mid to late 40s, with “dirty and unkempt” red hair. The other woman was around 60, with unwashed brown hair, and even fatter. The witness claimed that when the women realised she was looking at them, they hid the little girl's face. She recognised Mrs Albino as the red-haired woman with Madeleine in Carvoeiro. The second woman was never identified.

Another unrelated British witness, from Salisbury in Wiltshire, said she saw a woman resembling Mrs Albino outside the McCanns´ apartment the day Madeleine disappeared. In both cases the identifications were made from photographs. A much earlier report of a woman passing a child wrapped in a blanket over a fence to a man next to two parked vehicles in Silves two days after Madeleine's disappearance added spice to these later reports.

The “sightings” prompted private investigators employed by Madeleine's parents to zero in on Mrs Albino and follow her to “an isolated farmhouse” in an orange grove near the town of Silves where she lives. In a surveillance operation, private investigators saw her making several visits to the house and meeting there with a couple called Maria Alice Silveira and Jorge Martins. The couple's movements were deemed to be “suspicious” by a top detective employed by the McCanns.

Suspicions heightened when investigators found and photographed a child's rag doll on the seat of a Citroen Berlingo van parked at the house. “Was this the rag doll given to Maddie by her captors?” wondered The Sun in a headline spread over half a page. The question was promptly answered in the first sentence in the story that followed: “This little girl's rag doll could have been given to Madeleine McCann by those who snatched her, investigators believe.”

The investigators, posing as potential buyers of the property, came across a discarded child's drawing. And they spotted Jorge Martins buying clothes suitable for a child of five, the age Madeleine would then have been. They thought all this strange as neither Mrs Albino, Ms Silveira nor Mr Martins had young children of their own. “But surveillance was eventually wound down and the child was never found.”

These observations were passed to Portugal's criminal investigation police, even though the official Portuguese police inquiry into Madeleine's disappearance had been closed. By then the police had already considered hundreds of bogus or mistaken “sightings” in about 50 countries ranging from neighbouring Spain to Australia and New Zealand.

On learning of the Silves surveillance “evidence” through the newly released dossier, two of Britain's biggest-selling and most powerful newspapers carried prominent reports complete with separate photographs of Mrs Albino, Ms Silveira and Mr Martins, Madeleine, and the rag doll. They quoted a source close to Kate and Gerry McCann as saying. “There was credible evidence at the orchard that needed proper investigation by the Portuguese – that never happened.”

In fact, the Portuguese police did investigate the “sightings” and the “suspicious behaviour”. They questioned all three people and visited the farmhouse. They soon concluded there was no reason to take their inquiries further. Any reasonably intelligent Portuguese-speaking person who had spent a few minutes talking with Mrs Albino about the matter would have come to the same conclusion. This did not stop the British press from rushing into print with a load of baloney.

The truth that didn't make it into the papers is that Mrs Albino regularly drives through Carvoeiro on the way from Silves to a house she services. She never walks in the village with or without children in tow. “I have never held the hand of any child in Carvoeiro, let alone one with a black wig or resembling Madeleine McCann,” she told me. No villager can be found in Carvoeiro who would dispute that. As for Praia da Luz, Mrs Albino said she had never been there. She admitted somewhat sheepishly that she had only a vague idea of where Praia da Luz was located.

Overweight, yes, but no one who had known Mrs Albino over many years could recall her hair ever being dirty, unkempt or red. Indeed she did visit a somewhat neglected house in an orange orchard. It is on the outskirts of Silves' urban area, not “remote” as the newspapers made out. She visits it daily to feed the property's only occupants: her chickens, rabbits and a large guard dog.

The property had long been owned by the family of Mrs Albino's cousin, Maria Alice Silveira, who lives elsewhere in Silves. She used to own a dry-cleaning shop in the neighbouring town of Lagoa. Her partner ,Jorge, whom she has since married, is a primary school teacher. They drive over to the house in their Citroen Berlingo van from time to time to tend the orchard and collect fruit.

Mr Martins said he found the doll in a roadway, though it was such a minor event that he could not remember exactly where or when. The doll was in good condition so, without much thought he picked it and put it in the van. He agreed that there had been a discarded child's drawing at the house and, yes, he had bought clothes for a young child. Maria Alice had a grandchild of about Madeleine's age.

Although they did not read English, Jorge, Maria Alice and Ivone felt shocked and humiliated when told of the reports and shown their photographs in national British newspapers. Their shock soon turned to anger and anxiety about possible repercussions.

With the start of another summer holiday season in the Algarve, Ivone was concerned that British parents with young families staying in the holiday villas she cleans might view her with suspicion, jeopardising her job.

Maria Alice said she had lost some British customers at her dry-cleaning business because of the press pointing the finger unjustly. Jorge remained deeply disturbed by what he called “the stupidity” of the British reports that falsely insinuated wrong-doing.

All three considered suing to clear their names. But they soon came to realise they did not have either the capital or the connections to take the sort of legal action that resulted in the British press paying out £500,000 in damages to the McCanns, £550,000 to Robert Murat and £375,000 to the so-called Tapas 7. Actually, this humble group didn't want compensation money so much as an apology.

I have moved this thread to the Archives section as it is no longer latest news, and detracts from the latest news topics posted.