Re: Could Something Have Happened to Madeleine Earlier in the Week?

by Guest 07.01.12 14:20

PeterMac wrote:I think you are talking about the wrong shutter. The broken one is in G&Ks bedroom, i.e. the room overlooking the garden, the lane, the wall, the pool and the Tapas bar (if you stand on a chair).

i remember reading that the dogs picked up a smell in a garden or flower bed ? Was that near the repared window shutter ?

by Pershing36 07.01.12 16:05

monkey mind wrote:
Smokeandmirrors wrote:A cynic might speculate that one could easily try very hard to break a shutter, and have it on record that they are breakable if one were to later rely on a broken shutter for a mysterious purpose. But one would have to be very cynical indeed and not familiar with the rules of what you are allowed to think regarding such matters.
The same ficticious cynic, might also, if he were planning to stage a rather cynical abduction and the centre piece of his plan were a forced shutter, might want to find out ow to do such a thing. And then, the same cynic, some days later, when returning to put the finishing touches to his plan the piece de resistance, may not have been able to carry it through because there was someone wheeling a kiddy around in the street just outside the window. Or is this too cynical????

Or the cynical person may have thought he could have broken the shutter in advance and thinking it would have stayed broken. Reported it as the point of entry to the press, only to find out later it had been repaired. ooops

Better change the diary entry. shame on you

by **PeterMac** 07.01.12 16:23

Moa wrote:
PeterMac wrote:I think you are talking about the wrong shutter. The broken one is in G&Ks bedroom, i.e. the room overlooking the garden, the lane, the wall, the pool and the Tapas bar (if you stand on a chair).
I remember reading that the dogs picked up a smell in a garden or flower bed ? Was that near the repared window shutter ?

I believe it was directly below it. Someone may be able to confirm.

by Pershing36 07.01.12 16:31

I don't know about MW apartments, but I assume they are better than most things I have stayed in. For security on holidays I always close shutters and windows when I go out only to usually find them wide open when I get back because I assume the cleaners like the room airy and cool. Even in the USA I always turn the air con off when I go out to save electricity to find it on full blast when I return.

by monkey mind 07.01.12 16:32

Pershing36 wrote:
monkey mind wrote:
Smokeandmirrors wrote:A cynic might speculate that one could easily try very hard to break a shutter, and have it on record that they are breakable if one were to later rely on a broken shutter for a mysterious purpose. But one would have to be very cynical indeed and not familiar with the rules of what you are allowed to think regarding such matters.
The same ficticious cynic, might also, if he were planning to stage a rather cynical abduction and the centre piece of his plan were a forced shutter, might want to find out ow to do such a thing. And then, the same cynic, some days later, when returning to put the finishing touches to his plan the piece de resistance, may not have been able to carry it through because there was someone wheeling a kiddy around in the street just outside the window. Or is this too cynical????

Or the cynical person may have thought he could have broken the shutter in advance and thinking it would have stayed broken. Reported it as the point of entry to the press, only to find out later it had been repaired.

Better change the diary entry.

Yes, but on realising it had been repaired, it would have to be reforced again would it not? No one's going to believe entry was forced when there was no forced entry, and next to no one who (knows the facts) does, least of all the PJ. But it can't be done too early incase it is noticed and out trot the maintenance men or whoever. Leave it until the last minute.

Damn that buggy boy!!

by monkey mind 07.01.12 16:44

Pershing36 wrote:I don't know about MW apartments, but I assume they are better than most things I have stayed in. For security on holidays I always close shutters and windows when I go out only to usually find them wide open when I get back because I assume the cleaners like the room airy and cool. Even in the USA I always turn the air con off when I go out to save electricity to find it on full blast when I return.

Pershing 36, perhaps in your case when you returned to find the shutters and windows wide open having closed them yourself, well perhaps you were in fact burgled, entry was forced time and again and each time the burglar or gang of burglars didn't actually find anything to their liking despite switching on the air conditioner to keep cool and comfortable whilst perusing?

The exact opposite of what we are supposed to believe had happened in this case in fact!

Only when one considers the two cases, the explanation for your one makes a lot more sense than this other nonsense.

by Pershing36 07.01.12 16:49

monkey mind wrote:

Damn that buggy boy!!

Yeah I see your cynical persons point, but why report entry as a forced (apparently GM heavy handed), broken shutter if they knew it had been repaired and they had failed to stage it again?

My cynical source was on the lines of they assumed it was still broken, reported it to press, only to find out later from the PJ it was not broken. When was the diary released/read. Surely if it had been broken in advance then repaired they would have to cover this avenue strongly as it would have been a sure sign of planning.

by monkey mind 07.01.12 17:11

Pershing36 wrote:
monkey mind wrote:

Damn that buggy boy!!

Yeah I see your cynical persons point, but why report entry as a forced (apparently GM heavy handed), broken shutter if they knew it had been repaired and they had failed to stage it again?

My cynical source was on the lines of they assumed it was still broken, reported it to press, only to find out later from the PJ it was not broken. When was the diary released/read. Surely if it had been broken in advance then repaired they would have to cover this avenue strongly as it would have been a sure sign of planning.

The problem I have with that is that it appears the shutters broken earlier in the week were in the parents' bedroom rather than that of the children, which doesn't fit with the comments we have heard from K about the wind from the window in the childrens' room blowing the door shut. That would make even less sens thanit did if they thought their own bedroom window was still broken.

by Guest 07.01.12 17:14

PeterMac wrote:
Moa wrote:
PeterMac wrote:I think you are talking about the wrong shutter. The broken one is in G&Ks bedroom, i.e. the room overlooking the garden, the lane, the wall, the pool and the Tapas bar (if you stand on a chair).
I remember reading that the dogs picked up a smell in a garden or flower bed ? Was that near the repared window shutter ?
I believe it was directly below it. Someone may be able to confirm.

Yes it was directly below the bedroom.:
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5A:

From 8.30pm to 9.20pm, the dogs go through.
8.20pm: The cadaver dog, "marks," the couple's wardrobe area in the bedroom.
8.22pm: The cadaver dog, "marks" an area behind the sofa in the sitting room near the window overlooking the road.
From 8.47pm to 9.20pm, the blood detecting dog goes through.
8.10 (should it be 9.10?) The dog, "marks" an area of floor behind the sofa in the sitting room, near the window overlooking the road.

5B: 9.24 to 9.27pm: The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.

5D: 9.29 to 9.34pm: The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.

5H : 9.35 to 9.38pm : The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.

4G : 9.42 to 9.45pm : The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.

Garden belonging to apartment 5A (with access via the balcony and the steps):

9.49 to 10pm: The cadaver dog "marks" an area of the garden immediately below the window.

Subsequently, as previously determined, there proceeded the collection of various hairs from the ground of the pathway in the garden area next to the window of the couple's bedroom, they having been encased in a paper package referenced as trace evidence number 25.

After the above there proceeded the collection of several branches of the climbing plant in the garden they having been encased in a paper package referenced as trace evidence number 21 and of possible fibres on a wall of the apartment garden, next to the climbing plant, using six Crystal-Tabs appropriate for this they having been referenced as trace evidence number 26.

So the dog alerted to the corner of the mccann bedroom by the wardrobe - in the video of the dogs Martin Grimes says this could be the scent concentrated there because of airflow in the apartment.

The bedroom has patio doors which lead to a small patio area shared with the living room - see first photo. This show the view towards the bedroom patio doors from outside the lounge patio doors. On the right is the bedroom and you can just see the patio doors and shutters. It's these shutters that were broken...

The second photo shows the garden for 5a. It is private and has a wall around it. You can see the stairs on the right (covered by the purple flowered bush) and the lounge patio doors show above the purple bush. Then to the left with the yellow and white flowers and the bush climbing up to the top of the wall is the area under the bedroom patio doors and patio. Looking at the video of the dog in this area, which was shot at night unfortunately, it looks like was right in those bushes and he alerted to the area by the wall. Looks like it was quite a well hidden area, good for hiding things...

From the above report it also looks like they recovered some forensic evidence for testing.

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by Pershing36 07.01.12 17:15

Yes the point of exit. Doesn't mean somebody always leaves the same way they entered.

by monkey mind 07.01.12 17:41

Pershing36 wrote:Yes the point of exit. Doesn't mean somebody always leaves the same way they entered.

No, in a genuine break in people don’t always leave by the way they entered. But unless I got this wrong I’m not aware that there was ever any suggestion that entry had been gained through the parents’ bedroom window it was the childrens’ one wasn’t it? Why else would K’s fingerprints have been found on the bottom outside of those shutters in a manner indicating she had reached through the window to the outside and tried to lift them up. Nor am I aware of any indication that the patio doors were open thus allowing wind to blow the bedroom door shut. The theory has to fit the facts and not vice versa.

by russiandoll 07.01.12 19:05

can't see on the photo just posted due to shrubs and foliage....wondering if a child got access via patio door and tried to look over the balcony/veranda area , there is a high-ish looking wall.
Is a fall possible here on to the paved area of the garden?

by russiandoll 07.01.12 19:10

In another section, [trip to Sagres I think], some time ago, I posted about this date, it sticks out like a sore thumb in the book due to the lack of any detail about activities, when there are about 15 pages devoted to quite boring descriptions of what became routine events between 28 April and 2 May.
The one day when the routine changed would be the most interesting for a reader, yet nothing is talked about save a trip to buy a few things from a local supermarket and the usual but brief reference to the evening meal.
Madeleine was in creche for 15 minutes, unlike other days and she is unaccounted for for 2 whole hours, in the care of an adult or adults presumably, while twins remained in creche. So a case of silence being highly suspect.
A hugely significant date. But what the heck was going on we would all like to know.
And so would the police for sure.

by Guest 07.01.12 20:32

russiandoll wrote:can't see on the photo just posted due to shrubs and foliage....wondering if a child got access via patio door and tried to look over the balcony/veranda area , there is a high-ish looking wall.
Is a fall possible here on to the paved area of the garden?

The photos below are taken 4 May 2007 so show what the vegetation was like at the time.. (the previous photos I posted were in august 2007 when the dogs were used and the vegetation had grown a bit more - the bushes are higher and have grown through the railings on the patio wall outside the bedroom..

This shows on foto 16 the view from patio outside lounge. the wall gets lower towards the bedroom with railings. the drop on the otherside is to the garden and would be a high drop.

I think the cadaver smell in the garden was weaker - there was a strong reaction by the dog in the lounge behind the sofa.

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by Guest 08.01.12 8:58

monkey mind wrote:
Pershing36 wrote:Yes the point of exit. Doesn't mean somebody always leaves the same way they entered.

No, in a genuine break in people don’t always leave by the way they entered. But unless I got this wrong I’m not aware that there was ever any suggestion that entry had been gained through the parents’ bedroom window it was the childrens’ one wasn’t it? Why else would K’s fingerprints have been found on the bottom outside of those shutters in a manner indicating she had reached through the window to the outside and tried to lift them up. Nor am I aware of any indication that the patio doors were open thus allowing wind to blow the bedroom door shut. The theory has to fit the facts and not vice versa.

Kate's prints were not found on the shutter.

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From the glass located on the inside of childs window,
5 prints were recovered, 3 from the middle finger of LH, 2 from the index finger of LH, all belonging to Kate McCann.

From outside of the external blinds, i.e., the shutter,
3 inadequate prints were found. (according to experts, they are in the opening position of someone standing inside)

by monkey mind 08.01.12 12:32

Stella wrote:
monkey mind wrote:
Pershing36 wrote:Yes the point of exit. Doesn't mean somebody always leaves the same way they entered.

No, in a genuine break in people don’t always leave by the way they entered. But unless I got this wrong I’m not aware that there was ever any suggestion that entry had been gained through the parents’ bedroom window it was the childrens’ one wasn’t it? Why else would K’s fingerprints have been found on the bottom outside of those shutters in a manner indicating she had reached through the window to the outside and tried to lift them up. Nor am I aware of any indication that the patio doors were open thus allowing wind to blow the bedroom door shut. The theory has to fit the facts and not vice versa.
Kate's prints were not found on the shutter.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

From the glass located on the inside of childs window,
5 prints were recovered, 3 from the middle finger of LH, 2 from the index finger of LH, all belonging to Kate McCann.

From outside of the external blinds, i.e., the shutter,
3 inadequate prints were found. (according to experts, they are in the opening position of someone standing inside)

Stella, yes thanks for that. Could have sworn that I had read that prints were identifiable on the shutter, or perhaps it was in one of the videos, that’s how I was aware that they were as if from the inside. Either way thanks for setting the record straight. That’s the trouble with trying to get up to speed, haven’t had time to triple check everything.

by Guest 08.01.12 12:38

The fingerprints have confused many people. With windows and shutters to think of, plus all the really bad reporting, it's no wonder this very subject catches many people out.

by jd 08.01.12 13:02

Stella wrote:The fingerprints have confused many people. With windows and shutters to think of, plus all the really bad reporting, it's no wonder this very subject catches many people out.

If the reporting is on the level of Antonella Lazzeri no wonder many people are confused

by Guest 08.01.12 13:15

jd wrote:
Stella wrote:The fingerprints have confused many people. With windows and shutters to think of, plus all the really bad reporting, it's no wonder this very subject catches many people out.

If the reporting is on the level of Antonella Lazzeri no wonder many people are confused

Which is why it is very important to keep to the facts on here, to ensure that we remain a very good source of factual information and the best forum ever. big grin

by **HiDeHo** 08.01.12 13:22

Regardless of Goncalo Amaral claiming, according to the data (statements?) in the investigation, that Madeleine was seen at 5.30pm and that she may have wandered out of her bed and suffered a fall behind the sofa, his comment about the bed she 'slept' in seems to contradict what the 'data in the investigation' says. In his documentary he says the bed shows no indications of Madeleine having slept in it.

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The cleaner made the bed on Wednesday morning so he would be referring to Wednesday night as well as Thursday.

Why would he make this comment if he believed in something happening on Thursday evening?

Could it be that Madeleine slept elsewhere in the apartment? That would seem to infer that regardless of whether Madeleine had died at that point, that SOMETHING had happened to her earlier in the week to create the discrepancies in their statements.

by Guest 08.01.12 13:26

Goncalo has to paint some kind of picture and I think a very clever man would always create the simplest one for demonstration purposes, keeping the actual one up his sleeve for bringing about charges.

This is another reason why I have never accepted the fall behind the sofa version.

by monkey mind 08.01.12 13:44

Stella wrote:Goncalo has to paint some kind of picture and I think a very clever man would always create the simplest one for demonstration purposes, keeping the actual one up his sleeve for bringing about charges.

This is another reason why I have never accepted the fall behind the sofa version.

Unless the child had an unusually thin skull I find it next to impossible to accept that a child could fall behind that sofa and die accidentally. He’s an experienced police officer, he’ll be completely aware of the surprising amount of power in blunt force trauma either by a single blow or repetition needed to take a human life, even that of a child. To fall behind that sofa and die accidentally would be beyond bizarre.

by Guest 08.01.12 13:49

monkey mind wrote:
Stella wrote:Goncalo has to paint some kind of picture and I think a very clever man would always create the simplest one for demonstration purposes, keeping the actual one up his sleeve for bringing about charges.

This is another reason why I have never accepted the fall behind the sofa version.
Unless the child had an unusually thin skull I find it next to impossible to accept that a child could fall behind that sofa and die accidentally. He’s an experienced police officer, he’ll be completely aware of the surprising amount of power in blunt force trauma either by a single blow or repetition needed to take a human life, even that of a child. To fall behind that sofa and die accidentally would be beyond bizarre.

Precisely monkey mind. thumbup

by TrevorNigel 01.11.16 16:05

jd wrote:
Smokeandmirrors wrote:The main problem I have in my mind with something happening earlier is being able to keep calm and carry on with two tinies and all that two-ing and fro-ing, plus interacting with a big group of other adults etc all in an environment which is not a comfort zone. It seems very complex. I just don't know how anyone could go off to a bar and eat tapas. Although Gerry did manage to get an hours sleep the night his daughter disappeared into the darkness never to be seen again. I couldn't believe that. As if you could after your 3 yr old had just vanished.

I have thought this too many times, but they were the same on the night of the 3rd at the Tapas bar. They have been shown to be cold in terms of emotions and why they always make a point that they were told not to show any (Ive never seen any other parent behave like this)...its an attempt to cover up & defend their lack of emotions. And the famous picture 9 days later when they laughing and smiling like they had won the lottery. This wasn't a thank you kind of smile, this was a real happy I feel great laughing pouring out of their bodies. And this was at a time when their daughter had only very recently gone missing and most likely locked in a dark room somewhere with untold things happening, nobody would ever have this happiness flowing out of their bodies in this situation....nobody if their story was true

And you have people saying very nasty things that they think are happening to Maddie and they say nothing and do nothing. Yet get very angry when an extract of a diary gets published!!! The term 'smell the coffee' comes to mind

Hi JD , im new on here, been doing alot of reading.
On the bottom of your posts there is the comment about Symingtons ..look no further...ive seen some reference to someone of this name that was on the holiday.
Im intrigued you have this on the bottom of your postings..can you enlighten me or point me in the right direction to learn more ?
Thanks

by **Jill Havern** 01.11.16 16:28

TrevorNigel wrote:
jd wrote:
Smokeandmirrors wrote:The main problem I have in my mind with something happening earlier is being able to keep calm and carry on with two tinies and all that two-ing and fro-ing, plus interacting with a big group of other adults etc all in an environment which is not a comfort zone. It seems very complex. I just don't know how anyone could go off to a bar and eat tapas. Although Gerry did manage to get an hours sleep the night his daughter disappeared into the darkness never to be seen again. I couldn't believe that. As if you could after your 3 yr old had just vanished.

I have thought this too many times, but they were the same on the night of the 3rd at the Tapas bar. They have been shown to be cold in terms of emotions and why they always make a point that they were told not to show any (Ive never seen any other parent behave like this)...its an attempt to cover up & defend their lack of emotions. And the famous picture 9 days later when they laughing and smiling like they had won the lottery. This wasn't a thank you kind of smile, this was a real happy I feel great laughing pouring out of their bodies. And this was at a time when their daughter had only very recently gone missing and most likely locked in a dark room somewhere with untold things happening, nobody would ever have this happiness flowing out of their bodies in this situation....nobody if their story was true

And you have people saying very nasty things that they think are happening to Maddie and they say nothing and do nothing. Yet get very angry when an extract of a diary gets published!!! The term 'smell the coffee' comes to mind

Hi JD , im new on here, been doing alot of reading.
On the bottom of your posts there is the comment about Symingtons ..look no further...ive seen some reference to someone of this name that was on the holiday.
Im intrigued you have this on the bottom of your postings..can you enlighten me or point me in the right direction to learn more ?
Thanks

Here's a 'Symington' thread for you to read. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]