(2 Appendices added) 'Q' wants to know why none of Madeleine's DNA was found in Apt G5A (Long)

does anyone know if all the McCann's luggage was taken away by the Portugues police ? I'd be very interested to see exactly what was packed for all three of their children that week.

aquila wrote:does anyone know if all the McCann's luggage was taken away by the Portugues police ? I'd be very interested to see exactly what was packed for all three of their children that week.

That's a really good point Aquila. It would be interesting to see how many toothbrushes were actually packed for the trip, even if the kids did all end up sharing.

Just as an aside, I have always found toothbrushes to be very good for scrubbing at grout in between tiles and removing stains. Perhaps other people have also found this to be the case...

Stella wrote:

HFS wrote:I could be wrong but didn't one of the samples link to an old crime scene?

That doesn't ring any bells with me HFS.

On 9 April 2008, the DNA profiles obtained from the probatory components [objects] 286A/2007/CRL1A&B, 4A&B, 9A&B e 16A&B were submitted with a request to the National DNA Database(R).

Various matches were obtained with the results of 286A/2007/CRL4A&B; the majority of them were eliminated based on additional information obtained from the result; however, two remain (namely, bar codes 90264515 & 90374723). Those profiles were obtained using the old SGM system which examined only six areas of DNA. For this reason the samples should be upgraded [re-tested] using the new standard system SGMplus. It is likely that those samples would be eliminated after the upgrade.

Various matches were obtained with the results of 286A/2007/CRL9A&B; the majority of them were eliminated based on additional information obtained from the result; however, one remains (namely, bar code 80004801). It has matched with a sample of a spot recovered from a crime and cannot, at this time, be associated with a specific individual. Nevertheless, as that sample was processed with the old SGM system I consider the match to be of negligible significance.
All matches obtained from other samples were eliminated.

Found it, but it looks like it's irrelevant (as we could have guessed).

ETA Link http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

Thanks HFS. Very interesting...

niknak247 wrote:I've just been mulling over what has been written with regards to the "odd" DNA. I wonder if Madeleine was meant to be taken, that infact she is alive and well and the McCann's know this and regualrly see her - thus are not as distraught as any normal parent would be. Perhaps the whole event was set up for the purpose of explaining why she no longer lives with the McCanns, ie to UK friends and family....maybe this was the agreement all along hence Gerry's odd comment on the transfer bus....along the lines of I'm not here to enjoy myslef.... Therefore the whole thing has been a sham and the reason why the McCanns were more than happy to leave the twins in PDL..

That's what I used to think until they brought the UK dogs in (Eddie the cadavar dog and Keela the blood dog). How on earth can it be explained that death scent and blood was found in the McCanns apartment and hire car and on Kate's clothes and cuddlecat etc? Whichever way you look at this case to find an abductor or any other reason to hope Madeleine is still alive there is always the stumbling block of the indications from these two FBI-contracted dogs that only the McCanns have discredited. Why would the McCanns not demand to know whose blood and death scent it belonged to rather than excusing the findings as dirty nappies and rotting meat?

The whole thing has definitely been a sham and I pray that the Portuguese will reopen the case and get to the bottom of it.

ufercoffy wrote:

niknak247 wrote:I've just been mulling over what has been written with regards to the "odd" DNA. I wonder if Madeleine was meant to be taken, that infact she is alive and well and the McCann's know this and regualrly see her - thus are not as distraught as any normal parent would be. Perhaps the whole event was set up for the purpose of explaining why she no longer lives with the McCanns, ie to UK friends and family....maybe this was the agreement all along hence Gerry's odd comment on the transfer bus....along the lines of I'm not here to enjoy myslef.... Therefore the whole thing has been a sham and the reason why the McCanns were more than happy to leave the twins in PDL..

That's what I used to think until they brought the UK dogs in (Eddie the cadavar dog and Keela the blood dog). How on earth can it be explained that death scent and blood was found in the McCanns apartment and hire car and on Kate's clothes and cuddlecat etc? Whichever way you look at this case to find an abductor or any other reason to hope Madeleine is still alive there is always the stumbling block of the indications from these two FBI-contracted dogs that only the McCanns have discredited. Why would the McCanns not demand to know whose blood and death scent it belonged to rather than excusing the findings as dirty nappies and rotting meat?

The whole thing has definitely been a sham and I pray that the Portuguese will reopen the case and get to the bottom of it.

This is also a scenario I am considering. A sham to make money. Maddie was 'taken', sure. But she was never in danger and her parents knew it. The blood/cadaver dogs is indicative, yes, but not conclusive. It was never shown to be Maddie's blood in the apartment IIRC, or conclusively proven to be her DNA in the hire car. Would the McCann's have access to material which can 'plant' cadaver odour? I think so. Why would they do this? To create confusion ("confusion is good", G.McCann circa 2007).

Why would they insist that we continue to look for her if they had concealed her somewhere. She could be spotted surely and the plan shot to pieces. Not if we were looking for a girl who's image changed constantly (the 'poster' Maddie where she's around 2.5yrs, the tennis picture etc etc). And the unique selling point - the coloboma. If you spot a Maddie without the eye defect then it can't be her. We were told to look for a Maddie that didn't exist.

Hence the police's statement that she 'could still be alive' IMHO, and why we should continue to look for her.

Agreed Lady-Heather....the Panorama programme, definately hints that she will be found quite confidently...perhaps Maddie will be "found" and won't have the eye mark. Hence the reason the McCann's are down playing her eye now and have even stated it was never a colombona and in the first place. So much being covered up and lied about...will we ever no the truth?

niknak247 wrote:Agreed Lady-Heather....the Panorama programme, definately hints that she will be found quite confidently...perhaps Maddie will be "found" and won't have the eye mark. Hence the reason the McCann's are down playing her eye now and have even stated it was never a colombona and in the first place. So much being covered up and lied about...will we ever no the truth?

I think that is completely out of the question. For the simple reason that it is way too risky. Not only was it the biggest publicity campaign ever, but not only those who would have 'looked after' Maddie but neighbours, friends - you name it. The people who would have taken her would make a fortune by telling their story. Write a book about it and so on.

Maddie will never be found - the circus around it can go on forever.

I found this article very fascinating.

I want to draw attention to this part:

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

The Vatican on - Human cloning

Human cloning refers to “the asexual or agametic reproduction of the entire human organism in order to produce one or more ‘copies’ which, from a genetic perspective, are substantially identical to the single original” (n. 28). The techniques which have been proposed for accomplishing human cloning are artificial embryo twinning, which “consists in the artificial separation of individual cells or groups of cells from the embryo in the earliest stage of development… which are then transferred into the uterus in order to obtain identical embryos in an artificial manner” (footnote 47) and cell nuclear transfer, which “consists in introducing a nucleus taken from an embryonic or somatic cell into an denucleated oocyte. This is followed by stimulation of the oocyte so that it begins to develop as an embryo” (footnote 47). Cloning is proposed for two basic purposes: reproduction, that is, in order to obtain the birth of a baby, and medical therapy or research.

The scenario of artificial embryo twinning has been considered here on this thread; but what if Madeleine had been an experiment in the other method of cloning mentioned, that is somatic-cell nuclear transfer? 


This is how Dolly the Sheepwas cloned, and if Madeleine was a clone of this sort then she would have exactly the same DNA as Kate but none of Gerry’s. In other words, Gerry would not have been her biological father; no one was. 

Maybe the McCanns were taking part in a reproductive clone programme that was not approved by the government (as it is illegal in the UK) but involved some high-up government figures.

That would explain things like Kate calling her a “mini-me” and Gerry writing on his blog, “Despite her young age, it often felt like Madeleine had been on this earth before!”

Also, on Crimewatch Gerry said that she came out “almost perfect” as if she was some sort of commodity that came off a production line. 
If he wasn’t her real father but was looking after her in the interests of science (and no doubt getting well paid for it to boot), he might have had a professional interest in her only; he didn’t see her as his daughter or love her as a father would have done.

All this got me thinking about another explanation of what happened.

Initially the cloning experiment had gone well, but by 2007 Madeleine’s health was rapidly deteriorating (this has been discussed before, but in different context). Gerry had examined her and found she would not last long. He realized that that would mean an end to his regular paycheck from the ‘clone programme’ and so decided to take action.

He decided to sell Madeleine to someone in Portugal who would have her adopted to a rich family. He and Payne, (who must have known about this as he was the one Gerry told that he hadn’t come to enjoy himself on the airport bus), organized the trip and planned a fake abduction …hence the posters of Madeleine that appeared from nowhere.

He knew however that the interest in Madeleine would be short-lived...that he would get away with the fake abduction as his paymasters in the UK would obviously want the whole thing hushing up as quickly as possible; it wouldn’t have done for the Portuguese police to start asking awkward questions, especially if they decided to analize Madeleine’s DNA.

Sometime during the week however, “disaster” struck-Madeleine died.

For Gerry, the 'disaster' was that he wouldn’t get his money. 
So he decided on a new plan; the abduction would go ahead as planned, but he would make sure that it was not swept under the carpet, that the whole world would know about it. 

That meant he had to make sure that the world knew about it even before his 'bosses' knew, and he used his family and friends plus those of the T7 to do that job for him. 
Aftter that he made sure that they were never out of the news.

Obviously the main aim of all the publicity was to garner sympathy and get enough people on his side to justify starting a fund for Madeleine which, if he played his cards right, could last for quite some time.

He knew he would still get support from London as they would be terrified of him or Kate spilling the beans somewhere along the line. 
Clarence Mitchell may have been  brought in to make sure that didn’t happen.

All very Brave New World. But there do seem to be more than a few whiffs of scientific exploration/experimentation/commercialization attached to the whole case. 

Presumably, when you embark on IVF treatment, especially if you are using donor sperm or egg, you might be inclined to 'get fussy' about the implanted DNA - especially if you are vain, competitive, perfectionist and control freaks   . 

Even if you were not using donors, it might still get you fascinated by the whole IVF process which is fraught with hazards, excessively stressful/emotiona/personal and LUCRATIVE!!


Is it known for certain that both the McCanns are the biological parents? I know they say they are, as does Clarence Mitchell, which obviously provides us with some clues....

Then when you start thinking about IVF and DNA in association with this case, your mind wanders over to other scientific/medical/pharmaceutical/defence (?) links with this case.

For instance Enigma Diagnostics, which Gerry is/was involved with. And nuclear power - Gerry is/was a Government advisor with regards to safety of nuclear power plants. Are there not fears about cancer clusters around nuclear power plants and fears about increases of birth defects in babies born to women living near nuclear power plants? (Don't have the studies but I know there are some people highlighting these possible risks). 

Then you think about the profile of the guest list at the Ocean Club the week that the McCann's were there - some interesting players in these fields. Invitro-diagnositcs/prenatal diagnostics/infectious +biological control - all these are huge these days, in terms of commercial potential plus also highly controversial. 

(A scientist/expert somewhere who is in the field of prenatal diagnostics?). 

I've lifted some of what follows from Wilki (not saying it's particularly reliable or even necessarily right - but just to give a general idea)

For instance Enigma Diagnostics, which Gerry McCann was involved in, based at Porton Down, Salisbury - Porton Down is a United Kingdom government military science park. It is home to the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory, known as Dstl. Dstl is an Executive Agency of the Ministry of Defence(MoD), and the site is believed to be one of the United Kingdom's most sensitive and secretive government facilities for military research, including CBRN defence. 


It is also home to the Health Protection Agency's Centre for Emergency Preparedness and Response as well as a small science park which includes companies such as Tetricus Bioscience^[3] and Ploughshare Innovations.^[4]


Porton Down has also been involved in human testing. Most of the work carried out at Porton Down has to date remained secret. 


DSTL Porton Down is also involved in animal testing, where the "three Rs" of 'reduce' (the number of animals used), 'refine' (animal procedures) and 'replace' (animal tests with non-animal tests) are used as the basic code of practice.^[12] There has also been a decrease in animal experimentation in recent years.^[13]


Well, just a few ideas to mull around with. I can't spend any longer thinking about the animal testing that goes on there (in secret) as I am opposed to it on all sorts of grounds...testing out all those vaccines and drugs and so on

Animal testing....human testing (it would appear if you look into Porton Down there has been controversy over testing out drugs). All very top drawer.

There are laboratory reports [English], that the DNA from the Rothley pillow case belonged to a female child of Gerry & Kate and that it was not Amelie's ...

Mulling over the Health Protection Agency stuff (principally because I believe that this organisation should be closed down as being a danger to public health)  - was Gerry on an HPA Govt sub-committe relating to nuclear risks, or something similar? And Smethurst was/is legal advisor for a large nuclear organisation? And has defended the nuclear industry against claims from leukemia patients?  

Interestingly, on page 10 of her book, Kate writes how: "In my early teens I wanted to become a hematologist and find a cure for leukemia." Odd coincidence, perhaps.

And also considering the HPA's role in being a 'center for emergency preparedness and response'.  Emergency preparedness and response for what, exactly? 

Oh, right - let's think now, the terrible, awful, deadly pandemic which was going to cause millions of deaths - the scary  'swine flu'  which came and went causing scarcely a ripple - but was a massive earner for the drug companies and also spread fear among the public and stockpiling of drugs. Plus flogged a probably useless (and possibly dangerous) vaccine.  Hmmm........ (Google 'The pandemic that never was. Drug firms 'encouraged worl health body to exaggerate swine flu threat'.)

Perhaps Kate McCann was hoping to get herself a role in the Health Protection Agency as an expert in 'emergency and preparedness response' to child abduction? (Oh the bitter ironies in this case - fact is so much more interesting than fiction!)

Certainly, both she and Gerry were positioning themselves as experts in this field. The association with missing children organisations and charities. Their roles as guest speakers. And so on.

It would appear that creating havoc, confusion and fear can be highly profitable in all sorts of ways. 

And indeed so can child abduction!

As Kate opines on page 3 of Madeleine: "We realize that Madeleine's abduction has been hard for every parent to bear. It has brought home to everyone how vulnerable our children are and how fragile our lives. I have come to understand that some of critics have been acting out of self-preservation. Holding us culpable in some way makes them feel their own children are safer."

  

(I'll feel my children are a lot safer when there are at least two people are living at Her Majesty's Pleasure!)

And, as Kate writes on page 360: "I feel much more vulnerable than I did four years ago, particularly as a parent. ....Since that night my anxieties for Sean and Amelie have escalated. I'm worried more about accident, illness and, not surprisingly, about whom they are in contact with."  


Wonder what the Health Protection Agency are going to do about the McCanns?

Hi niknak247

I too have considered the hoax scenario: Madeleine, perhaps not an easy child to bring up, was maybe to be farmed out to relatives in Canada or somewhere, with perhaps the help and advice of 'father' wossname, the Canadian Anglican priest and his wife. I do believe the McCanns have relatives out there. That would explain their bizarre behaviour in smirking when others discussed 'sightings', or the aged progressed picture; their lack of interest in searching for Madeleine themselves when she first disappeared; the ignoring of horrified PJ officers who said mentioning her distinctive coloboma ('a good marketing ploy' according to Gerry; though she almost certainly did not have one. 'Confusion is good'.) would sign her death warrant if she really had been abducted. It would also explain Gerry's remark that he was not on the trip to enjoy himself; their overall general lack of distress (ongoing) about the loss of their elder daughter. Also it could explain 'the wider agenda' sic which led to a huge circus and a financial scam with vast amounts of money raised, and celebrity status, and semi-sainthood and all.

A modification of this view is that all of the above was intended, but that something went badly wrong (perhaps over-sedation) and Madeleine died. Everything else still had to swing into place, or the parents risked losing their jobs, their diligently acquired middle class status, and their two remaining children. However, the plan needed to be hideously modified, because it was Madeleine's body that had to disappear. Here local contacts had to be used, at least for advice, and a mad merry-go-round was set in motion and the McCanns can no longer get off it.

BUT! When I get to thinking that way, the significant indicative evidence of Martin Grime's EVRD blood and cadaver scent detection dogs brings me up short every time. I think the McCanns would have to be very odd people indeed (and they are certainly odd) to ignore the evidence of those dogs. Most people would be horrified when confronted with the finding that their child had likely died in their apartment. They would not refuse to answer questions no matter what their lawyer advised. They would not run away back to England. They would do everything to co-operate with the investigation! The only reasons for them not to be bothered much, IMHO, are either that they are sure she is alive and well elsewhere, or that she is sadly dead. Whatever... I am sure they know what really happened, they are trapped by it, and they are coping with that knowledge in a very strange way.

Quote from r.rob:-

"Presumably, when you embark on IVF treatment, especially if you are using donor sperm or egg, you might be inclined to 'get fussy' about the implanted DNA - especially if you are vain, competitive, perfectionist and control freaks   . 

Even if you were not using donors, it might still get you fascinated by the whole IVF process which is fraught with hazards, excessively stressful/emotiona/personal and LUCRATIVE!!


Is it known for certain that both the McCanns are the biological parents? I know they say they are, as does Clarence Mitchell, which obviously provides us with some clues...."




Yes, the ivf angle interests me intensely too j.rob.

Not sure what you mean by your first sentence but as far as I am aware most european countries the egg donor's characteristics are pretty much annoymous, you would only know basic facts such as blood type, height, colouring etc to achieve a physical match (if so desired) to the intended birth mother, but that is all.  For most people, the overiding goal would be to acheive a healthy live birth and baby, by the time you have got to this stage the dna used would become a secondary, almost irrelevant consideration.  If you were the type to 'get fussy' then you would have to travel to somewhere like the USA where you can choose more physical attributes, education, profession, physical 'attractiveness' etc.

Yes, I would say that there is a huge amount of money to be made from IVF both from the fees from the clinical process, the selling on of prescribed meds, and in particular the source of donor eggs - so yes I have thought that maybe the P de Luz contingent were there to set up an IVF clinic (in Portgual?) or somewhere similar. I would say that over the last ten years + an awful lot of British couples (and singles) have gone abroad for donor egg treatment as donated gametes were not readily available without a long wait (and a large price) in the UK - the most popular places to go were initially Spain then later the Czech Republic (v popular with GB/USA patients).   Same with donor sperm - just hop on a plane to europe and you can be treated without a long wait in the UK.  There are many such clinics operating with great success in w and e europe, not so many that I am aware of in Portugal (or at least not attracting the big bucks from the UK/USA).  The Mccans would probably know about all this if they were contemplating IVF, they would soon have realised how rubbish the UK is in this respect and how much money could be made from a european satellite clinic. 

I would also say that it really strikes me how darn easy it would be to rock up at a clinic say in eastern europe, receive donor eggs which could then be fertilized with the partners (either real or supposed) sperm - or donor sperm if it were deemed necessary. Or alternatively how incredibly easy it would have been to receive already frozen donated embryos (ie a previously fertilised and frozen embryo made from donated eggs and donated sperm).  I am aware that there are often a good supply of these in some clinics without many questions asked (if any).

I often thought that if you wanted to produce children for nefarious reasons then it would be very easy to produce them this way, you just need a surrogate for ten months. It has gone through my mind reading various comments (the alleged missing twin, the alleged ambiguity of the DNA, withholding of MBM's medical records, the different looking MBM's etc) that there could be something along these lines behind this case. Or some sort of embryo experimentation, embryo splitting or some sort of experimental diagnostic technique.

Going off the rails here... my flameproof overalls are here somewhere....Ahh,here they are...


I have often thought, but kept my mouth shut, that M was never in Portugal and a substitute was used. The Mc's brought her out to Portugal and someone else took her home, hence the lack of DNA, washing of cuddlecat etc etc

Maybe M was a genetic experiment that was going wrong and as a result she was to be kept at a medical facility somewhere where she would shortly end her days and the abduction (of the substitute) was a way to explain why she was no longer with them. 

As i believe genetic experiments are illegal on humans it was imperative that she didn't die in normal circumstances as there would most likely be a coroner involved and the subsequent stink that could cause. 

In Portugal something didn't go to plan, maybe the Mc's were going to come clean to the world, via newspapers etc about M and the experiment and as a result were dealt a blow, the sub went missing, cadaver evidence was placed in key areas and the Mc's were briefed about it all and what could happen if they didn't cooperate.

From there the Mc's briefed the Tapas posse (however many there were) and the rest is history ....





I'll get my coat.....

Don`t get your coat yet Stumo - this was one of the first things I thought of until I was told how ridiculous it was.  I still think its a possibility, particularly because of the Coloboma and Turner`s Syndrome.  I only did genetics briefly at Uni but I do remember a lecture about Turner`s Syndrome and the lecturer saying that it could explain the virgin birth but Jesus would have to be a female and not be able to have children herself (they don`t develop female characteristics).  I believe coloboma can occur with Turner`s Syndrome. http://www.ijem.in/article.asp?issn=2230-8210;year%3D2012;volume%3D16;issue%3D3;spage%3D331;epage%3D338;aulast%3DChopra

If Turner`s Syndrome is involved, she would need constant monitoring by an Endocrinologist and I believe one of the T7 is one.  As the Pelvic and reproduction area is also involved I would expect a Urologist to be monitoring her as well and I believe one of the T7 is one.

Yes, the Mini-Me quote from Kate is odd.  Would any mother ever refer to her daughter as Mini-Me if she wasn`t actually a replica ?

Phew! I thought it was just too far out there...


And there's also the perfect genitals  comment too which is another strange comment which comes back to the Turners Syndrome.

So as they have the  urologist and endocrinologist there , maybe M was in Portugal but they certainly didn't want a post mortem/Coroner involved.

We could also bring in the Weinbergers here (apparently 3 doors down from the McCanns) - he works at Porton Down as described on another thread here and is an expert in In-Vitro Diagnostics. 

"In vitro diagnostics (IVDs) provide much more than simple assays conducted in test tubes and examining glass dishes under microscopes. IVDs are used in large-scale population screening, such as for cervical cancer, as well as for predicting whether a specific medicine or treatment will work on a patient. Patients with diabetes use IVDs regularly to monitor their blood glucose. They are also used to make or confirm a medical diagnosis, from confirming a pregnancy to checking for infectious diseases such as hepatitis or HIV."

All these people could have been there as part of a monitoring group.

So with all the specialists in PDL it's unlikely that a sub was used and that M was there.

So why PDL and not a secure establishment in the UK where anything could happen without anyone else knowing?

Dunno Stumo. Personally I believe she was there initially and that maybe a sub was used later.

As for going to another country - what better way to cause confusion.

I must reiterate that it`s all theory and a bit far fetched, but if she was a clone with deteriorating health, how would her demise be explained in the UK?

As Chateleine has said, the FSS confirmed that she was the child of both parents (that`s if they are to be believed).

Crumbs, Twilight Zone time, again.

One thing. Lots on here have pointed out that they believe many of the publicised photos of Maddie are, in fact, of Kate at the same age - the old-fashioned clothes and 70s-looking surrounding in some of the pictures. Perhaps they could get away with this because, as a clone, the 2 children would be, presumably, identical.

Dee Coy wrote:Crumbs, Twilight Zone time, again.

One thing. Lots on here have pointed out that they believe many of the publicised photos of Maddie are, in fact, of Kate at the same age - the old-fashioned clothes and 70s-looking surrounding in some of the pictures. Perhaps they could get away with this because, as a clone, the 2 children would be, presumably,  identical.

The trouble with the cloning theory is that  one would have to start with much younger and  better 'stock'.

There was DNA of Maddie in 5a, in the car. The simplest reason could be just that-  a definite identification of  her DNA in certain circumstances (such as the car and 5a)  would prove her to be dead.
The campaign relied  entirely on a living girl. If that's the case you'd clean really well and fudge the rest I think.

The traces of DNA found in 5a were under the tiles iirc, everything else that could possibly have her DNA on it was gone by 5/5 when all the children's clothes were washed.
I still think they never expected the car to be examined, but if the smell had to be explained, the rotting meat had already worked once, so...

There is something strange when GM says that 'Madeleine is a mixture of both of us'......well yes, if he and Kate are the parent then it's pretty obvious.
It' a dumb thing for a doctor to say.

Hicks wrote:There is something strange when GM says that 'Madeleine is a mixture of both of us'......well yes, if he and Kate are the parent then it's pretty obvious.
It' a dumb thing for a doctor to say.

He said that in the Swedish interview to explain away the DNA found. - he said something like: ' of course Madeleine's DNA was in the car because our DNA was in it ...'
The smartie DNA theory as I like to call it., evidently he missed the class on alleles or has simply forgotten that essential bit of science or - perish the thought - he thinks we're all very stupid.