Re: McCanns Easter break Donegal 2007

by Guest 14.10.11 10:00

The pub is called fishermanns . there is no accurat adress but there is a phonenumber.

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Also refered to as peoples bar

People's Bar of Óstan Thóriagh

The People's Bar social scene at the hotel captures the very essence of Tory Island folklore. What you witness is not only to be seen to be believed but is every bit as genuine as the personalities of the people of Tory themselves. The social scene has not been manufactured or devised to promote a fairytale image of Tory Island for you to take home - it is Tory Island folklore.

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Found under Water, Environment & Emergency Services
His mail adress?`jpeoples@donegalcoco.ie
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by Lady-Heather 14.10.11 10:45

Found this too, which suggests it's called Joe's bar. I think this poor pub is going through some identity crisis:

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You need to type in 'number' 380962 and make sure you select the 'search for' - "Both" option.

by russiandoll 14.10.11 10:49

Get your point now ....of course it would have made perfect sense to put an up to date photo of Maddie in the public domain....it smacks of the same odd behaviour after she disappeared, releasing one where she looked much younger. I was clearly tired when I came here last night.......not to see the obvious point being made!

by TheTruthWillOut 14.10.11 13:20

I decided to compare this picture:
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With Google Streetview images. I think it is interesting? We have a red painted house, "Tully Bookmakers" appears dark green with gold letters and "Edward Boyle &" is visible, and the reported date of this picture is mid-April 2007?
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This picture now has the red house now painted cream/beige? The sign's letters look completely different and "Edward Boyle &" is covered. Which would all be fine except, the Grey 4X4 in the foreground is, I believe, a Nissan Quasqai which wasn't launched in the UK/Ireland until late Feb 2007.
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In this picture the house is still not red. On the left hand side of the picture you will see, I believe, a white Ford Kuga 4X4, which wasn't launched in the UK/Ireland until April 2008.
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A closer look at the "Tully Bookmaker" sign. The same sign and colours as the one above with the grey 4X4.

To conclude: between late Feb 2007 to at least April 2008 the Tully bookmakers and it's neighbour don't appear to have changed.

That means the photo of the children at the beginning of this post must have been either:
1, Taken before Feb 2007 or sometime after April 2008.
2, Be Photoshopped
3, Or it is the wrong location. (I don't believe this)

My money would be on number 2. But *why* Photoshop it? It just baffles me. confused

Sorry for the long post! If I have messed anything up, please let me know blushing1

by Daisy 14.10.11 13:32

tumbleweed wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I was very curious about this topic and did a little searching and found this. It's a "Joe's Bar" about 14k away, but not in St. Johnston and not on a corner. It clearly says "Joe's Bar" on the window, though. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Thanks tumbleweed and welcome. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] Yes, I agree with Lady heather, this is most likely the place, but not on a street corner hmmm. Is there anyway you can show a close up of the "Joe's Bar" sign? No probs if not, I know I couldn't.

@ Moa, I don't believe the Fisherman's Inn is the same place, nor the hotel that you linked to, that appears to be on an island.

@ Lady Heather. That link is very useful, cheers. Although I'm confused as to why 2 businesses would have the same number?

NameNumberAddressType

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]	380962	MAIN STREET ST. JOHNSTON LIFFORD CO. DONEGAL	B
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]	380962	CARBED CARROWMORE LACKEN BALLINA CO. MAYO	C

Check out the effective date on company details, does this mean the Bar was only registered in 2009?

ype	Business Name
Number	380962
Name	JOE'S BAR
Address	MAIN STREET ST. JOHNSTON LIFFORD CO. DONEGAL
Registered	06/03/2009
Status	Normal Effective date: 06/03/2009

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by Guest 14.10.11 13:42

Interesting posting The Truth Will Out - let's hope that it does some day! I don't know one end of a car from another (well maybe wearing my glasses I can) so I can't comment on that side of your research.

I can only say that, in my opinion, the twins and the girl who is supposedly Madeleine look too old for the photo to have been taken as claimed in early April 2007.

The fact that, as far as I am aware, it wasn't published anywhere before 2008 makes it highly likely that it was not taken in 2007. I will gladly eat humble pie if anyone has proof that it was published in 2007!

by **tigger** 14.10.11 14:59

Thanks, truth will out, for all that work.
Thank goodness they were into all that house painting round there. We can rule out Maddie having been there at that time and the twins are certainly way too big to be just over 2 yrs. old. Maddie looks much too tall for a 4 yr old there anyway. When I see the tennis girl photo and the Irish ones, the word 'lanky' comes to mind. Kate said she was such a 'compact' little girl and she certainly looks like that in many photographs.

This brings the sighting of the family at Zaival Beach at Easter 2007 (see topic) and possibly Burgau back into focus.

When Kate said in a video 'That was the April we went to Portugal', fair enough, they left on the 28th, but it was May when everything happened and they were due to stay the first week in May. May would have come to mind rather than April, I would think.
So there is a possibility that they were in PdL or nearby Easter 2007. Did it all begin then?

by Lady-Heather 14.10.11 15:41

Hi Daisy – on the Joe’s Bar topic, no I don’t think that businesses can share a registration number, each business has its own unique number according to Companies House. I think what the CRO search results are telling us is that it’s the same company, but that the ‘Name’ Joe’s Bar was registered in 2009. The other business (Kevin Walsh Haulage Limited) was dissolved in early 2011. It’s possible to buy a copy of the business name registration form for EURO2.50, which should tell us who registered the name, premises etc.

by TheTruthWillOut 14.10.11 17:29

Jean wrote:Interesting posting The Truth Will Out - let's hope that it does some day! I don't know one end of a car from another (well maybe wearing my glasses I can) so I can't comment on that side of your research.

I can only say that, in my opinion, the twins and the girl who is supposedly Madeleine look too old for the photo to have been taken as claimed in early April 2007.

The fact that, as far as I am aware, it wasn't published anywhere before 2008 makes it highly likely that it was not taken in 2007. I will gladly eat humble pie if anyone has proof that it was published in 2007!

Thanks Jean. You are quite right about the cars! I know my cars but even I struggle sometimes with identifying them because they look so similar these days.

The grey one I'm confident is a Nissan Qashqai from Feb 2007-on. The white one was much more difficult but after closely comparing the Ford Kuga with the Hyundai IX35, I I'm fairly confident it is the Hyundai now blushing1

Which was launched ~March 2010.

This just means the Google streetview pictures suggest after late Feb 2007 and upto March 2010 the Tully Bookmakers sign and the house next door were the same.

I would love to know the dates the Google streetview van passed twice through Main Street, Dungloe! I know Google uploaded the streetview maps of the Rep of Ireland around 30th September 2010

The more I look at the various images on streetview and the kids picture, the more I get confused!

1, The kids picture shows some missing tiles on the roof of the red house above the right window in the shape of a "+" sign. If the pic is genuine it was taken mid-April 2007.
2, The streetview picture with the grey 4X4 shows the tiles have been replaced and the watermark on this pic says "c2009 Google"
3, The streetview picture with the white Hyundai 4X4 launched in march 2010 shows the tiles missing again!

I think I'll give this a rest for a bit and come back to it later! flag

by pauline 14.10.11 18:23

Does anyone know how long they were in Donegal? or the dates?

Now the Mccanns live nr leicester. Donegal isn't the most convenient place to get to from there so you wouldn't really go for just a weekend.

How did they get there? Drive-car ferry - long drive to Donegal or fly to nearest Irish airport and hire a car? Probably the car ferry as they'd want their own car with child seats. Wouldn't this break have involved Gerry taking some annual leave? He also took a week for PDL. It seems odd taking two short holidays so close together and using up your leave.

How many days annual leave would a health service employee in gerry's position get? normally people keep their leave for a main summer holiday and maybe a short break(s) at other times. Donegal is not known for its sun, rather for its scenic beauty. April is not the obvious time to go there especially when you have very young children who would go mad inside if it rained all the time which it could do there.

what I'm thinking is - did they go to Donegal at all Spring 2007?

by russiandoll 14.10.11 18:49

maddie looks quite a bit older in this spring 07 photo than in the famous one supposedly taken xmas 07 or are my dates wrong?

by Nina 14.10.11 18:56

All most interesting. If I may give a few observations. Mixed up and not in any order [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

When the red house was white there was a rail on the bottom right hand window, not on the red house. The plants in the tub are very different suppose different time of year though. The pink shoes that Amelie wears are clearly the pink sandals Madeleine held up in the supposed 2006 Christmas video, so that would be only 4 months, also look at the size of Madeleine's feet. In PdL Amelie was very obviously still in nappies, could see them under her shorts yet in this photo though not clear there doesn't seem to be a nappy bulge and somehow she just looks older as does Sean imo in the Donegal photo.

Sorry but I cannot post photographs for comparison

by Guest 14.10.11 18:57

The Christmas video was supposedly in 2006 but, if that's correct, the changes in the children between December and April are very hard to believe. More likely it was in 2005. Here's a very early story about the Donegal visit - with acknowledgement to whoever it was who posted it on the Photographs and Memories topic.

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The reference to Madeleine turning four last Saturday can I think be taken as an error for will turn four next Saturday.

by **tigger** 14.10.11 19:10

Marian wrote:The Christmas video was supposedly in 2006 but, if that's correct, the changes in the children between December and April are very hard to believe. More likely it was in 2005. Here's a very early story about the Donegal visit - with acknowledgement to whoever it was who posted it on the Photographs and Memories topic.

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The reference to Madeleine turning four last Saturday can I think be taken as an error for will turn four next Saturday.

The ubiquitous mr. People again? I don't believe this story for a moment. Much too soon to be published unless triggered by Auntie Phil on demand. I don't believe the description of the wee mischievous little girl either. Lovely story for the newspapers, primed by Auntie Phil on instruction from Gerry? The wee mischievous sounds exactly like Philly's own press statement on Maddie.
Point is, the photographs from that holiday could have been published almost immediately. They could have been used right then and there.
How would the newspaper get hold of the news? Mr. People would have had to ring the newspaper with the story, it wasn't as if journalists were going round trying to find information on Maddie in Ireland.
No, this smells to high heaven to me. Rigged.

by Guest 14.10.11 19:11

Daisy wrote:

Quoting Joe Peoples: "The bar hasn't got a name as such because the older people would still
call it McCann's and the younger people would call Joe's."
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Pauline: this article quotes Joe Peoples as saying he thought the McCanns were there for a week to 10 days. The Easter weekend in 2007 was 6th to 9th April.

Unfortunately it now appears that everything the strangely named Mr Peoples (I have never heard that before anywhere) says needs to be taken with a vast amount of salt!

by pauline 14.10.11 19:15

Marian wrote:The Christmas video was supposedly in 2006 but, if that's correct, the changes in the children between December and April are very hard to believe. More likely it was in 2005. Here's a very early story about the Donegal visit - with acknowledgement to whoever it was who posted it on the Photographs and Memories topic.

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The reference to Madeleine turning four last Saturday can I think be taken as an error for will turn four next Saturday.

just read that article and it helps answer some of my questions in my earlier post. It certainly seems they were there for some days, maybe up to a week, and that they came by plane. that means they must have hired a car with three child car seats. It also means that as the twins were 2 at that point they had to pay half fare for all the children adding to the holiday cost which would have included car hire. Much cheaper to use a car ferry and their own car. Of course people have said that the Mccanns were pushed for money and certainly two holidays so close together would have taken a big slice out of their April 2007 salaries. From the article, it appears to have been a family and friends reunion and it appears definite that the McCanns and children were there yet other posters have raised so many points that indicate this may not be the case, or at least that there is something questionable about the photo.

by pauline 14.10.11 19:18

tigger wrote:

The ubiquitous mr. People again? I don't believe this story for a moment. Much too soon to be published unless triggered by Auntie Phil on demand. I don't believe the description of the wee mischievous little girl either. Lovely story for the newspapers, primed by Auntie Phil on instruction from Gerry? The wee mischievous sounds exactly like Philly's own press statement on Maddie.
Point is, the photographs from that holiday could have been published almost immediately. They could have been used right then and there.
How would the newspaper get hold of the news? Mr. People would have had to ring the newspaper with the story, it wasn't as if journalists were going round trying to find information on Maddie in Ireland.
No, this smells to high heaven to me. Rigged.

I agree Tigger - this has to be a planted story but what is the motive? Why do they need to establish they took a holiday so soon before the famous one in PDL?

by **tigger** 14.10.11 19:36

pauline wrote:
tigger wrote:

The ubiquitous mr. People again? I don't believe this story for a moment. Much too soon to be published unless triggered by Auntie Phil on demand. I don't believe the description of the wee mischievous little girl either. Lovely story for the newspapers, primed by Auntie Phil on instruction from Gerry? The wee mischievous sounds exactly like Philly's own press statement on Maddie.
Point is, the photographs from that holiday could have been published almost immediately. They could have been used right then and there.
How would the newspaper get hold of the news? Mr. People would have had to ring the newspaper with the story, it wasn't as if journalists were going round trying to find information on Maddie in Ireland.
No, this smells to high heaven to me. Rigged.

I agree Tigger - this has to be a planted story but what is the motive? Why do they need to establish they took a holiday so soon before the famous one in PDL?

Just thought because this was so soon after 3/5, that TM wanted to establish that they had been in Ireland. Then a year later we get an anachronistic photograph of the actual holiday with the 27 or 46 or whatever number of family there.
This just makes me think that they were in Zaival beach after all. Perhaps that when it all started. See also the Burgau topic.
I have seen a copy of the four boarding passes for 28/4 and in the GNR photograph of 5a, there are four passport lying on the table. Loads of possibilities, but linked to the creche records, which don't even prove she was ever there, the vague DNA evidence in the Burgau apartment, the blue chairs in Burgau which are in the background of two very suggestive photographs of Maddie, both with make up, I wonder.
The evasive Ruth McCann, who owned nr. 5a, earlier bookings were checked but may be wrong or was the place empty over Easter? What if Maddie died much earlier and the whole charade had to be played out later that month?
That the Ireland story was to show she was alive at that time and that they were not in Portugal? Because there is a fairly definite sighting of them there.

by Guest 14.10.11 20:04

The pj files contain 2 x baggage tags for Gerry 28 April to Faro..

There are also 4 x tags - not sure if these are luggage labels or boarding passes.. but they show a flight number FR1676 which is Ryanair Derry to East Midlands Airport flight 10 April 2007. This flight was later discontinued:

These are in the pj files presumably from the passports... would tend to suggest 4 x people flew back from derry on 10 April 2007 - Easter holidays were 6-9 April that year.

This would tend to suggest that 4 people flew back from Derry - but surely there should have been 5 x people flying back .. so maybe Madeleine wasn't with them, which may mean she wasn't in Ireland in april 2007....

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by tumbleweed 14.10.11 22:18

candyfloss wrote:
tumbleweed wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I was very curious about this topic and did a little searching and found this. It's a "Joe's Bar" about 14k away, but not in St. Johnston and not on a corner. It clearly says "Joe's Bar" on the window, though. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Hi tumbleweed, and [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Thanks for the welcome. :)

And sorry, I'm not sure how to link
properly to a google maps view, but maybe this will work, if anyone is
curious about the Joe's Bar that is 14k away in a place called Strabane.

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If
you click the picture it will take you to mapview and then you can go
from streetview there. It's a red building with "Joe's Bar" on the
window.

Although from everything I've read, it doesn't seem like
this would be the place that used to be McCann's Bar, as it's too far
away/not in St. Johnston.

by Guest 14.10.11 22:30

In this link - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - the story mentions that the paper had printed photos of Madeleine in Ireland "in the weeks following her disappearance". Now they would be very interesting to see because that would confirm that they were taken in 2007, though whether the girl was really Madeleine would be harder to prove. I wonder if it's possible to pursue this further though I guess without an exact date of the relevant issue it will be difficult.

By the way, note the reference under the photo to Madeleine with "a couple of friends".

by pauline 14.10.11 22:38

Stewie wrote:The pj files contain 2 x baggage tags for Gerry 28 April to Faro..

There are also 4 x tags - not sure if these are luggage labels or boarding passes.. but they show a flight number FR1676 which is Ryanair Derry to East Midlands Airport flight 10 April 2007. This flight was later discontinued:

These are in the pj files presumably from the passports... would tend to suggest 4 x people flew back from derry on 10 April 2007 - Easter holidays were 6-9 April that year.

This would tend to suggest that 4 people flew back from Derry - but surely there should have been 5 x people flying back .. so maybe Madeleine wasn't with them, which may mean she wasn't in Ireland in april 2007....

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Thats really interesting Stewie. Why would madeleine have been left behind and with whom?

If they flew back on April 10th thats less than 3 weeks to their next holiday (April 28th).

by Guest 14.10.11 22:52

Does anyone know if airlines are obliged to keep passenger records for any length of time? If they still exist, I presume that the police would be able to obtain the details of how many McCanns returned on that Ryanair flight on 10th April 2007. The number who left on the outward jourmey wouid also be very interesting.

by Guest 14.10.11 22:56

pauline wrote:
Stewie wrote:The pj files contain 2 x baggage tags for Gerry 28 April to Faro..

There are also 4 x tags - not sure if these are luggage labels or boarding passes.. but they show a flight number FR1676 which is Ryanair Derry to East Midlands Airport flight 10 April 2007. This flight was later discontinued:

These are in the pj files presumably from the passports... would tend to suggest 4 x people flew back from derry on 10 April 2007 - Easter holidays were 6-9 April that year.

This would tend to suggest that 4 people flew back from Derry - but surely there should have been 5 x people flying back .. so maybe Madeleine wasn't with them, which may mean she wasn't in Ireland in april 2007....

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Thats really interesting Stewie. Why would madeleine have been left behind and with whom?

If they flew back on April 10th thats less than 3 weeks to their next holiday (April 28th).

But isn't this just the lugage tags? The twins might share travelbag therefor only four tags..?
But she looks a lot taller than 90 cm on that Donegal picture. im 100 % sure she is taller than that. My niese is 90 cm and looks more like seans hight,,