Madeleine McCann: Explanation of the DNA Analysis as detailed in the forensic report by John Lowe

Verdi wrote:
I didn't say that!

 
@ Verdi, sorry no, it wasn't you who asked the question. Sometimes, I can't always use the quote button correctly! 

Still, if anyone can answer, I'd love to know - how do you actually forensically clean an apartment?

puzzled wrote:

What's_up_doc? wrote:

Verdi wrote: Had the apartment been  forensically cleaned after the crime 

 
Could I just ask, how would you do this? I'm not that well read about DNA, but I assume that my living room, for example, is full of my DNA. It's presumably on everything I touch, and I have no idea how you would get rid of it. So what do you have to do to forensically clean a place?

Hi cleaning up a crime scene really depends on the crime and the scene! In the apartment in Portugal there are hard, tiled floors which can easily be cleaned to remove traces of blood, for example, with general cleaning products. What can't be removed is traces of blood that seap between gaps in the floor and this is what was detected by one of the dogs, blood which had seaped below the surface and was not visible. Unfortunately the traces of blood detected had become degraded, probably by cleaning products.  If Maddie had had her own toothbrush and her own hairbrush then it would have been very straightforward to obtain adequate samples of DNA.  What is problematic here is that for whatever reason, it was not possible to obtain adequate reference samples from the apartment and a pillowcase from the UK had to be retrieved for forensic purposes.

@puzzled.


I have no idea how you forensically clean an apartment.

I've read hydrogen peroxide (sold in large bottles at supermarkets abroad) is very good. It doesn't leave a smell. It does on occasion leave what looks like a tea stain on washed fabric.

What's_up_doc? wrote:

puzzled wrote:

What's_up_doc? wrote:

Verdi wrote: Had the apartment been  forensically cleaned after the crime 

 
Could I just ask, how would you do this? I'm not that well read about DNA, but I assume that my living room, for example, is full of my DNA. It's presumably on everything I touch, and I have no idea how you would get rid of it. So what do you have to do to forensically clean a place?

Hi cleaning up a crime scene really depends on the crime and the scene! In the apartment in Portugal there are hard, tiled floors which can easily be cleaned to remove traces of blood, for example, with general cleaning products. What can't be removed is traces of blood that seap between gaps in the floor and this is what was detected by one of the dogs, blood which had seaped below the surface and was not visible. Unfortunately the traces of blood detected had become degraded, probably by cleaning products.  If Maddie had had her own toothbrush and her own hairbrush then it would have been very straightforward to obtain adequate samples of DNA.  What is problematic here is that for whatever reason, it was not possible to obtain adequate samples from the apartment and a pillowcase from the UK had to be retrieved for forensic purposes.

I guess bleach and hot water would do a good job. 
I image it would take a while to clean each and every room in an apartment of all DNA. Certainly longer than the time scale available on the Thursday evening scenario. 
If of course you move the time of death to a day earlier in the week, they may have had days to clean the apartment. 
And if the death was Sunday, then how many things would have been touched in that short time that wouldn't fit in a washing machine?

The presence of blood between the tiles is very concerning.  If it's Madeleine's
then it indicates either an accidental fall - or something worse.  What might she have fallen from?  Back of sofa as Amaral suggests?  Seems unlikely that a fall from a sofa would cause a severe enough injury for there to be blood between the tiles. Possible, but the back of a sofa isn't very high, so not convincing.  Also, it was backed up against the window so there weren't many places that she could have fallen onto.

hawkmoth wrote:The presence of blood between the tiles is very concerning.  If it's Madeleine's
then it indicates either an accidental fall - or something worse.  What might she have fallen from?  Back of sofa as Amaral suggests?  Seems unlikely that a fall from a sofa would cause a severe enough injury for there to be blood between the tiles. Possible, but the back of a sofa isn't very high, so not convincing.  Also, it was backed up against the window so there weren't many places that she could have fallen onto.

If I remember correctly, police believed the sofa had been moved up against the window after events had taken place,  one reason being that the curtains were then unnaturally pinned between the sofa and wall, and they thought this was part of a staging. So theoretically Madeleine could have fallen over the back of it.

As for cleaning up the DNA in the apartment, this video gives some indication of how thorough and careful a cleaning routine needs to be in an operating theatre, something the McCanns would be very familiar with:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni-Qoa34rcc

Verdi wrote:a)  Why was the analysis of every sample submitted to the FSS not 'meaningful'
b)  Why did Gerry McCann collect a pillowcase from Rothley when visiting in May 2007
c)  How was the pillowcase conveyed to Praia da Luz
d)  Why was the pillowcase later sent to the FSS laboratories for further analysis

e) Why is a pillowcase from home less contaminated then anything from 5A?

No sense.

BlueBag wrote:

Verdi wrote:a)  Why was the analysis of every sample submitted to the FSS not 'meaningful'
b)  Why did Gerry McCann collect a pillowcase from Rothley when visiting in May 2007
c)  How was the pillowcase conveyed to Praia da Luz
d)  Why was the pillowcase later sent to the FSS laboratories for further analysis

e) Why is a pillowcase from home less contaminated then anything from 5A?

No sense.

I have always thought the same, and how do we know it was Madeleines pillowcase?

In our family, prior to going on holiday all the bedding is washed so we come home to nice clean beds. Not saying that this should be done, but most families I know do the same.

I have a vague memoy whe I was on another fornum,that a person called beachy I think was her name . Said that she read ,that the dna found on pilwcase was achild of the adult mac cans ,and I was not one of twins ,so if they had no more kids ,it would have to been Maddies .Does anyone else know this ?joyce1938

MayMuse wrote:

BlueBag wrote:

Verdi wrote:a)  Why was the analysis of every sample submitted to the FSS not 'meaningful'
b)  Why did Gerry McCann collect a pillowcase from Rothley when visiting in May 2007
c)  How was the pillowcase conveyed to Praia da Luz
d)  Why was the pillowcase later sent to the FSS laboratories for further analysis

e) Why is a pillowcase from home less contaminated then anything from 5A?

No sense.

I have always thought the same, and how do we know it was Madeleines pillowcase?

In our family, prior to going on holiday all the bedding is washed so we come home to nice clean beds. Not saying that this should be done, but most families I know do the same.

Hi yes the Mccann's had cleaners so I would have thought the same. I would have also thought that the PJ would have ensured that the bedding from the apartment was not removed before analysis but I don't know if that's the case - I'll have to check the case file.

Can it really be true that the Portuguese police trusted Gerry McCann to go home and bring back his daughters' pillowcase, replete with lots of her hairs?  He could have substituted it with one of his wife's - same blond hair.  Unless he was accompanied by police as he went in his front door, the exercise would have been meaningless.

puzzled wrote:

Verdi wrote:
I didn't say that!

 
@ Verdi, sorry no, it wasn't you who asked the question. Sometimes, I can't always use the quote button correctly! 

Still, if anyone can answer, I'd love to know - how do you actually forensically clean an apartment?

1.  No problem, I have the same problem myself - just wanted to make it clear they weren't my words.

2.  'Ask the dogs' puzzled !

Did the PJ request that Gerry go home?

Or did Gerry need an excuse to go home - he was just trying to be helpful?

Gerry came back with something more than a pillowcase though.

hawkmoth wrote:Can it really be true that the Portuguese police trusted Gerry McCann to go home and bring back his daughters' pillowcase, replete with lots of her hairs?  He could have substituted it with one of his wife's - same blond hair.  Unless he was accompanied by police as he went in his front door, the exercise would have been meaningless.

The PJ and the lab had reference samples from both parents and the twins so this scenario would not be possible. Also, the pillowcase wasn't 'replete with lots of hairs' and this is the most important issue because it means the reference sample for Maddie's hair was very poor, thus making a conclusive match impossible. This is my understanding and I stand to be corrected if someone knows otherwise!

aquila wrote:@puzzled.


I have no idea how you forensically clean an apartment.

I've read hydrogen peroxide (sold in large bottles at supermarkets abroad) is very good. It doesn't leave a smell. It does on occasion leave what looks like a tea stain on washed fabric.

I've heard that you can remove red wine stain from a carpet by using white wine as a cleaner.  I won't put it to the test - not prepared to waste a good quality wine by throwing about the floor.  Come to think of it, I wouldn't spill it the first place .

Thought for the day.

JRP wrote:
If of course you move the time of death to a day earlier in the week, they may have had days to clean the apartment.

Alternatively you could get all your mates and half the Ocean Club staff to trample about the apartment, well and truly contaminating the crime scene.

hawkmoth wrote:The presence of blood between the tiles is very concerning.  If it's Madeleine's
then it indicates either an accidental fall - or something worse.  What might she have fallen from?  Back of sofa as Amaral suggests?  Seems unlikely that a fall from a sofa would cause a severe enough injury for there to be blood between the tiles. Possible, but the back of a sofa isn't very high, so not convincing.  Also, it was backed up against the window so there weren't many places that she could have fallen onto.

I think you will find there is evidence that the sofa was moved.

BlueBag wrote:

Verdi wrote:a)  Why was the analysis of every sample submitted to the FSS not 'meaningful'
b)  Why did Gerry McCann collect a pillowcase from Rothley when visiting in May 2007
c)  How was the pillowcase conveyed to Praia da Luz
d)  Why was the pillowcase later sent to the FSS laboratories for further analysis

e) Why is a pillowcase from home less contaminated then anything from 5A?

No sense.

That is just what I was trying to say in the post.  If I remember correctly (in a rush), a pillow/pillowcase said to have been on the bed occupied by Madeleine at apartment 5a was sent to the Portuguese forensic laboratories.

Edited:  Apologies, said child's pillow/pillowcase was taken by the PJ in August 2007 from the villa later rented by the McCanns.  Why there was interest shown in such items I know not.

Then you have Madeleine's socks she was wearing in the tennis ball photograph;  her new holiday sandals;  her Gap broderie anglais ensemble new for the holiday;  unwashed cuddlecat;  her sun hat;  her under garments;  her hairbrush (she must have had one);  her pink comfort blanket - the list is endless.

joyce1938 wrote:I have a vague memoy whe I was on another fornum,that a person called beachy I think was her name . Said that she read ,that the dna found on pilwcase was achild of the adult mac cans ,and I was not one of twins ,so if they had no more kids ,it would have to been Maddies .Does anyone else know this ?joyce1938

That information is clearly detailed in the PJ files - haven't time at the moment to dig it out.

Thanks for our reply Verdi,  just knew there was a positive testthat identified the dna on pillowcase from her home .Sadly I heard Beachy had died ,it was some time ago,she did make it very clear . there  another beachy around now ?joyce1938

Verdi wrote:

hawkmoth wrote:The presence of blood between the tiles is very concerning.  If it's Madeleine's
then it indicates either an accidental fall - or something worse.  What might she have fallen from?  Back of sofa as Amaral suggests?  Seems unlikely that a fall from a sofa would cause a severe enough injury for there to be blood between the tiles. Possible, but the back of a sofa isn't very high, so not convincing.  Also, it was backed up against the window so there weren't many places that she could have fallen onto.

I think you will find there is evidence that the sofa was moved.

I have always had the thought that the blood under the tiles was blood diluted by cleaning water which had seeped between the cracks of the grouting and tile edge.

joyce1938 wrote:Thanks for our reply Verdi,  just knew there was a positive testthat identified the dna on pillowcase from her home .Sadly I heard Beachy had died ,it was some time ago,she did make it very clear . there  another beachy around now ?joyce1938

It's here..

I have received from my colleague, Sarah Vraitch, copies of the reference DNA profiles of Gerald McCann (CB/1), Kate Healy (CB/2), Amelie McCann (SBM/2) and Sean McCann (SBM/3). I have also received a copy of the DNA profile obtained from the possible saliva staining on the pillow case (SJM/1) which is assumed to be the DNA profile of Madeleine McCann.

 Re: Abduction of Madeleine McCann on 3rd May 2007

A DNA profile has been obtained from the reference samples of Kate HEALY (51162896) and Gerald McCANN (51162897).

A DNA profile has also been obtained from a pillowcase (SJM/1).

DNA profiling reveals a series of bands, half of which a child inherits from their natural mother (maternal) and half of which inherits from their natural father (paternal).

In this case, all of the bands present in the prof - e of abtained from the pillowcase are represented in the combined profiles of Kate HEALY and Gerald McCANN. This is what I would expect to find if the profile obtained from the pillowcase originated from
a natural child of theirs.

The results of the DNA profile obtained from the pillowcase is approximately 29 million times more likely if the profile originates form a natural child of theirs rather than someone unrelated to them.

In my opinion, the results detailed above provide extremely strong support for the view that the profile obtained from the pillowcase originated from a natural child of Kate HEALY and GERALD McCANN.

Please note: I understand that the McCANN's have a second female child. It therefore remains a formal possibility that the DNA on the pillowcase could have originated from her as the genetics would be in keeping with those described above.
----------

Re: Abduction of Madeleine McCann on 3rd May 2007

A DNA profile has been obtained from the reference samples of Amelie Eve McCANN (SBM/2) and Sean Michael McCANN (SBM/3).

In this case, all of the bands present in the profiles of both Amelie McCANN and Sean McCANN are represented in the combined profiles of Kate HEALY and Gerald McCANN. This is what I would expect to find if Amelie McCANN and Sean Michael McCANN were their natural children.

Neither the DNA profile of Amelie McCANN nor Sean McCANN matches that from the pillowcase (SJM/1) and therefore in my opinion, neither Amelie McCANN nor Sean McCANN can be the source of this profile.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

That is the formal report submitted by John Lowe.  It doesn't however answer any of the quesitons aforementioned.

Nina wrote:

Verdi wrote:

hawkmoth wrote:The presence of blood between the tiles is very concerning.  If it's Madeleine's
then it indicates either an accidental fall - or something worse.  What might she have fallen from?  Back of sofa as Amaral suggests?  Seems unlikely that a fall from a sofa would cause a severe enough injury for there to be blood between the tiles. Possible, but the back of a sofa isn't very high, so not convincing.  Also, it was backed up against the window so there weren't many places that she could have fallen onto.

I think you will find there is evidence that the sofa was moved.

I have always had the thought that the blood under the tiles was blood diluted by cleaning water which had seeped between the cracks of the grouting and tile edge.

I agree, that's the most likely explanation.

Thanks  for that Verdi,i hope this will be helpful to many ofus on  this site ,I am not so good  at explaining,these days ,I knowhat I know at The time though. joyce1938